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June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

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West,

DP is and has not Bargained in good faith his entire tenure as CEO for the most part!
Have you all forgotten your pre merger negotiations?

Have you all forgotten that he can secretively reach CLA with other airline employee groups in a nano second compared to his own airline agreements.

Remind me again how long you were working past the amendable date of your contract pre merger. How bout your FA's?

USAPA should have been released years ago by the " mediator " and given DP the opurtunity to run an airline with a few west scabs.

He is totally enabled to pull off this crap via our pathetic government oversight of the RLA.
Politics at it's worse!

FA
 
Damn, the bears are still hungry.

Come on up and they'll like you - tender young meat...

Jim

PS - I see you're still taking potshots too. Looked in your mirror lately???

PSS - when you say you went to a school that graduated meteorologists but wasn't one of them, the only them you can be refering to not being is meteorologists....did you learn English from EastPus???
 
Well how junior are you?

Pilot Permanent Bid 11-04
September 2011

Varini seniority number 3306

Pilot Permanent Bid 12-03
September 2012

Varini seniority number 3256

Difference 50

How is it you moved up 57 number while Varini only moved up 50 and he is very near the bottom of the list?

As far as blaming alpa. It was the east pilot you and all your friends that demanded DOH/LOS and refused to allow your MC to move off that position. alpa national did not tell you what to do. Your MEC just did what you told them to do. Maybe you forgot about the petition that was floating around demanding DOH.

You blame alpa for no being responsive to the pilots. But now you say that usapa the new and wonderful union that you all wanted was doing militant stuff that half the pilots did not want either. How could that be? Is it the union or is it the pilots that allow it to happen or perhaps that is what the pilots want to happen.

The line pilots wanted usapa to attack the west. The line pilots wanted alpa to demand DOH.

My bad on the 57. Used a printed off master list I had from a while back. The number is 26 for the times you listed Sept to sept.

Anyhow as you pointed out there are 50 gone in that period with no mandatory retirements.

No I did not sign the doh petition. Never thought straight DOH would work as I have said here several times. DOH with fences big enough to protect each side and their atrittion similar to Allegheny/Lake central or Allegheny/Mohawk should have worked well. the change in retirement age tossed a wrinkle in there also.

Bottom ine is we are where we are. I know straight DOH with no protections is not fair for you guys, and you know NIC does the same thing to our side.

We both know that without the so called merger both of our pitiful airlines probably would not have survived.

But it looks like neither side will ever give. East will never willingly accept a NIC and west looks like they will never willingly accept anything in between NIC and straight DOH so here we are

We make what we make and you make what you make. What amazes me is how much you guys stress about what we make. Especially since you guys get paid more. I live just fine on 93, would like to make more sure, but nothing we have seen or even been hinted at from parker has been enough to offset the damage NIC does to us. It really is that simple.

The only guys really left after the next 7 years are the ones that really get hammered in a NIC scenario. That is why you are seeing the resistance to it.
 
All jabs aside, do you think Parker has negotiated in good faith?
This is what the federal judge in NY (not AZ) had to say about usapa claim of bad faith against the company. This is the man whose job it is to determine and interpret the law. So the expert says no bad faith. But you east pilot I guess know better than a federal judge what good and bad faith are. usapa is the plaintiff. This was the first case the the new lawyers talked Cleary into. $350,000 to be dismissed with prejudice before the trial even started. It did not survive the motion to dismiss just like the RICO case.

Because plaintiff’s allegations of broad anti-union bias are unsubstantiated by well-pleaded facts, they cannot give rise to the inference that defendants are negotiating in bad faith. See Chicago & N. W. Ry. Co., 402 U.S. at 575 (stating that an employer’s duty to bargain in good faith is essentially a corollary of its duty to recognize a union).

Plaintiff’s other allegations—including that defendants have not significantly altered their proposals from the Kirby proposal—similarly fall short of stating a claim for bad faith bargaining. Plaintiff misconceives the scope of the duty “to exert every reasonable effort” to reach an agreement, which does not require one side to accede to the other’s proposals:

[M]ovement toward the position of the other side is not a requirement of good
faith bargaining. . . . Mere insistence on demands that seem extremely harsh to the
other side and that a neutral party may consider “hard” is not a violation of
bargaining duties. An employer may insist on positions consistent with . . . its
asserted needs, even if the union may consider the proposals greedy.

Trans World Airlines, Inc., 682 F. Supp. at 1026 (internal citations omitted). “Courts must resist finding violations of the RLA based solely on evidence of hard bargaining, inability to reach agreement, or intransigent positions.” Horizon, 976 F.2d at 545. Here, plaintiff essentially asks the court to find bad faith predicated on US Airways’ lack of flexibility and its unwillingness to become more generous as the bargaining process progresses. But a company’s bargaining positions do not violate the statutory standards merely because they are “obstinate and unyielding,” Trans Int’l Airlines, Inc. v. Int’l Bhd. of Teamsters, 650 F.2d 949, 958 (9th Cir. 1980) (internal quotation marks omitted), and the distance between the parties after a long period of negotiations does not amount to a lack of reasonable effort to reach an agreement, Spirit, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 52326, at *30.

Nor could the facts alleged by plaintiff otherwise permit a conclusion that defendants are engaged in the mere pretense of negotiation. Extreme bargaining positions, such as a proposal by a carrier that would allow it to change unilaterally any work rule at any time for any reason or that would require the union to recruit replacement workers during a strike, have been found to constitute evidence of such surface bargaining. See Horizon, 976 F.2d at 547. Here, by contrast, USAPA argues that defendants’ proposal is unreasonable because it does not conform to industry standards as USAPA defines them. In order to assess this contention, the court would be forced to assess the substantive proposals of each party and to weigh their reasonableness. Doing so would take the court beyond the permissible scope of a bad faith bargaining inquiry.
That about says it all. As usapa defines them. That has always been the case.

Windfall as usapa defines it.
Unfair as usapa defines it.
DFR as usapa defines it.
Treating all pilots equally as usapa defines it.
 
Yo pops-

Why would DP negoiate in good faith with usAPA?

Honest question.

Has usAPA negoiated in good faith with the company??

Really, have they?

PD

West,

DP is and has not Bargained in good faith his entire tenure as CEO for the most part!
Have you all forgotten your pre merger negotiations?

Have you all forgotten that he can secretively reach CLA with other airline employee groups in a nano second compared to his own airline agreements.

Remind me again how long you were working past the amendable date of your contract pre merger. How bout your FA's?

USAPA should have been released years ago by the " mediator " and given DP the opurtunity to run an airline with a few west scabs.

He is totally enabled to pull off this crap via our pathetic government oversight of the RLA.
Politics at it's worse!

FA
 
Why do you think that the west would all come charging east just to get the wonderful WB F/O position? The 767 goes down to 89% of your list. That can't be great, desirable or valuable flying if it goes so junior.

The top few guys on the 190 could hold Captain on any narrowbody anywhere in the system. On Reserve......

Those are QOL bids. I could hold a WB, If I wanted to commute to sit reserve. I would rather stick a blowtorch up my rear than commute to reserve...been there done that in my younger days. It sucks bad.

You make my point, the 76 goes down 89% because of the commute involved most likely.

What percentage of the west commutes to PHX? My guess is not too many, or the ones that do it is not far. It's an honest question, it might help explain some of the differences we seem to have in how we perceive what is a "good" position and what is not. All the west pilots I personally know live in PHX so their commute is driving to the airport. On the east we have been forced and displaced to so many bases we have lost count. To date I have spent 14.5 years commuting. Only 4 years of that was by choice before I had enough of that garbage. 🙂 been commute free for 3 years and loving it!
 
Just as a side point the new 330's, 757's and E190's were all brought to the property after the merger. I have helped bring them to party yet I'm locked out of them. Some off the street new hire can bid them before I do. Where's the equity in that?

In usAPA world that's ok I guess.

Hmm, odd. If your numbers are correct how did I move up 57 numbers in the last 10 months? Attrition is not just about captain seats you know. Wonder how many guys that are on short call reserve are waiting for a line? Or how many guys on the 190 are waiting for the Bus? Etc. Etc. 40 seats in 5 years is a huge number for a guy that ONLY has 5 years or less left to get to a left seat! Using your numbers of 155 of the over 60 guys currently are f/o's I bet those 40 seats are pretty important to them. Means difference between retiring as f/o or capt.

I don't think you are considering any of the QOL issues that we old farts on the east rate above simple payscales. The amount of guys we have NOT bidding Captain that could hold it due to QOL issues is huge. Just look at the seniority numbers for the F/O side on the WB's and the small bus.

When referring to the "line" pilots on the east you have to consider even if you don't want to the guys that you are not factoring in using your NIC list. Roughly 1/3 of the east active list does not appear in your calculations. However they DO vote and fly daily as they have for years with the other guys that do factor in your list. Like it or not when you are talking NIC and trying to convince the east guys that it's in their best interest to take NIC the current active east list looks nothing like it did in 2005. Even by the time NIC was published in 2007 the list looked nothing like it did in 2005.
 
Just as a side point the new 330's, 757's and E190's were all brought to the property after the merger. I have helped bring them to party yet I'm locked out of them. Some off the street new hire can bid them before I do. Where's the equity in that?

In usAPA world that's ok I guess.

And we make less than you do yet fly the same airplanes for the same company. Wheres the equity in that?

In westworld that's ok i guess.

We each have a trade off to accept in the "nothing but NIC" fight.
 
Just as a side point the new 330's, 757's and E190's were all brought to the property after the merger. I have helped bring them to party ....

"I have helped bring them.." You have?....Really? Kindly expand on exactly what YOU have done to bring in any additional aircraft?...and/or determine their placement? This should prove interesting.....

A small caution in advance; if it's merely an issue of doing your job over a period of time...well...that's never been allowed by nic supporters as having any value whatsoever.

Were one to allow the "I have helped bring them.." argument, based on work performed...that would forward the obvious argument that the east contingent "helped bring" the entirety of what was sadly then left of US to the party as well...widebodies et al, and the west "brought" only PHX and LAS, with the aircraft then extent in each....which would badly serve as any justification for the nic abortion methinks....
 
Yo pops-

Why would DP negoiate in good faith with usAPA?

Honest question.

Has usAPA negoiated in good faith with the company??

Really, have they?

PD

Yo Portly,

1- required by NLRB
2- matter of opinion, I say yes. Rather subjective Q and I surely wasn't there.

Will note that it's plainly obvious to anyone which party stands to gain or lose by bad faith negotiations. Can you possibly think of ANY rational reason for USAPA not to earnestly bargain in good faith?
Then there is DP's past track record with unions.
Hmmmm.........I have reached what I consider rational determination of
DP ethics.

FA
 
Come on up and they'll like you - tender young meat...

Jim

PS - I see you're still taking potshots too. Looked in your mirror lately???

PSS - when you say you went to a school that graduated meteorologists but wasn't one of them, the only them you can be refering to not being is meteorologists....did you learn English from EastPus???

That's funny. Only at US(east) could I be considered young.

I guess I learned English from the same place you learned to spell "refering".

I am to my university and meteorologists what you are to your school and engineers. I guess, unless you went there as a janitor or something.

p.s. When I asked that I really wondered if you were an engineer. I figured not by the way you worded it, but really just curious.
 
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