i have to agree with you. an faa employee, cabin inspector, is my neighbor. this particular individual has told me that on numerous occasions the faa has tried to make usairways take the "express" off of the aircraft.Dog Wonder said:
Mda To Republic
- Thread starter Winglet
- Start date
320:
Why don't you just admit why the MEC can't wait to cut the MDA guys loose?
When the inevitable integration comes with AWA, one would think that they would want as many numbers on the list to go head to head with the AWA guys and the arbitrator......however......the MDA guys are a nice ace up the sleeve to play later on and since this MEC created this giant seniority mess (3 yr. Captains and 17 year F/O's) they know the best thing is to cut it loose to Republic and be wash their hands of the situation.
I have a name for you 320, and if I ever run into you again, I will make it a point to tell you to your face what I think of you and the morons you continue to side with. MDA IS USAIRWAYS..... it can't be any simpler than that. The USAirways system seniority list is cut and dried.....you can't hope that part of it doesn't exist.
I hope that all the energy you expend keeping the MDA guys is returned in kind when it is your turn in the barrel.
Boomer
Why don't you just admit why the MEC can't wait to cut the MDA guys loose?
When the inevitable integration comes with AWA, one would think that they would want as many numbers on the list to go head to head with the AWA guys and the arbitrator......however......the MDA guys are a nice ace up the sleeve to play later on and since this MEC created this giant seniority mess (3 yr. Captains and 17 year F/O's) they know the best thing is to cut it loose to Republic and be wash their hands of the situation.
I have a name for you 320, and if I ever run into you again, I will make it a point to tell you to your face what I think of you and the morons you continue to side with. MDA IS USAIRWAYS..... it can't be any simpler than that. The USAirways system seniority list is cut and dried.....you can't hope that part of it doesn't exist.
I hope that all the energy you expend keeping the MDA guys is returned in kind when it is your turn in the barrel.
Boomer
CaptainBoomer:
Let me ask you a question. How do you account for the furloughed pilots who are senior to many of the MDA pilots? MDA pilots are furloughed US Airways pilots and there is nothing you, I, or anybody else can do about it. It's a lousy situation but ALPA National has classified them as a different "class and craft" as US Airways furloughed or CEL piltos flying for the MDA Division of US Airways.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Let me ask you a question. How do you account for the furloughed pilots who are senior to many of the MDA pilots? MDA pilots are furloughed US Airways pilots and there is nothing you, I, or anybody else can do about it. It's a lousy situation but ALPA National has classified them as a different "class and craft" as US Airways furloughed or CEL piltos flying for the MDA Division of US Airways.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Actaully ALPA National has made no determination other than classifing the MDA pilots as Active AAA, that is we ARE pilots actively flying for US Airways INC.
It is only the AAA MEC that persists in calling us "furloughed", but not in writing so far...
I missed the part when I was ever furloughed, but that is besides the point.
Because as I pointed out, it has nothing to do with being furloughed from the "Mainline", that is irrelevant.
It is US Airways INC that is being merged (Not US Airays, there is a difference), and obviously the MDA pilots are not currently furloughed from US Airways INC... Otherwise the AAA MEC has been collecting dues and assesments, counting votes of, and allowing members to hold committee positions/MEC Offices illegally.
IMO the whole, "you are still furloughed from Mainline" thing is nothing but a smoke screen to allow the AAA MEC to place AWA pilots in front of all MDA and furloughed U pilots (in what I assume is an effort to insure the success of the merger by tossing those junior, and usually without legal recourse/vote/a say in front of the bus).
No thanks.
I hope I am mistaken, but without a good explanation of this strange "interpretation" of our status that have alluded to, I tend to become suspicious
It is afterall ALL of US Airways INC that is being merged, and ALL the flying of US Airways INC. should be included in any snapshot. You cannot count just the "part" of the airline you choose to... It does not work that way. Why would anyone want to go against ALPA merger policy...?
To exclude MDA makes no more sense, nor is it anymore in compliance with ALPA poilicy than if the AAA MEC decided to leave the LGA domicile out of the count for further unknown reasons. The E170 flying is as much a part of US Ariways INC as is your own flying...
All we ask is that the rules be followed, and the count be correct. Our reps should represent ALL of us. Those at MDA and all of the APL, in senority order...
The way it should be.
What is so wrong with that...?
It is only the AAA MEC that persists in calling us "furloughed", but not in writing so far...
I missed the part when I was ever furloughed, but that is besides the point.
Because as I pointed out, it has nothing to do with being furloughed from the "Mainline", that is irrelevant.
It is US Airways INC that is being merged (Not US Airays, there is a difference), and obviously the MDA pilots are not currently furloughed from US Airways INC... Otherwise the AAA MEC has been collecting dues and assesments, counting votes of, and allowing members to hold committee positions/MEC Offices illegally.
IMO the whole, "you are still furloughed from Mainline" thing is nothing but a smoke screen to allow the AAA MEC to place AWA pilots in front of all MDA and furloughed U pilots (in what I assume is an effort to insure the success of the merger by tossing those junior, and usually without legal recourse/vote/a say in front of the bus).
No thanks.
I hope I am mistaken, but without a good explanation of this strange "interpretation" of our status that have alluded to, I tend to become suspicious
It is afterall ALL of US Airways INC that is being merged, and ALL the flying of US Airways INC. should be included in any snapshot. You cannot count just the "part" of the airline you choose to... It does not work that way. Why would anyone want to go against ALPA merger policy...?
To exclude MDA makes no more sense, nor is it anymore in compliance with ALPA poilicy than if the AAA MEC decided to leave the LGA domicile out of the count for further unknown reasons. The E170 flying is as much a part of US Ariways INC as is your own flying...
All we ask is that the rules be followed, and the count be correct. Our reps should represent ALL of us. Those at MDA and all of the APL, in senority order...
The way it should be.
What is so wrong with that...?
Rico, Sounds like you are about to get screwed by some chipmunks. This isn't right or fair and I hope it doesn't come to that. Savy
320:
I owe you an apology.....you do GET IT! The $1K question......
How do we account for it?
I will tell you how. You and your MEC bozos created this mess of a situation. There are several options available to the MEC, none of them is painless and of course it will take LEADERSHIP to pull any of them off......LEADERSHIP which is sorely lacking at the U MEC and ALPA National.
First, the easy way. ALL U pilots on the seniority list must be included in the merger. It may be easy to go into the gentle good nighty with your new brothers the AWA pilots.....but before you get all cuddly with them, you must remember the 2000 of your own that are currently twisting in the wind. It is no secret that this MEC will lay something down at the altar in the name of getting the merger done to save their own bacon and we all know that when the going gets tough, this MEC runs and hides and cries that there was no other way. Get off your butt and fight for them. They deserve it and their sacrifice DEMANDS your action on their behalf. No disrespect to the AWA folks, but if the situation was reversed, what do you think their position would be? Hint: They aren't about to sacrifice ANY of their pilots, even ones still on probation. You could learn a lot from them..... I digress.
Second the hard way. These jobs are USAirways pilots jobs. Worse case is the entire MDA system must come up for bid to all the APL pilots to see who takes the jobs, and those jobs are included in the merger with the same protections that your sorry butt has. This would have the effect of possibly putting some people currently working out of work, but the pain for that can be laid squarely at the feet of this MEC for coming up and allowing such a convoluted group to be employed on the U pilot seniority list. Either way, seniority RULES. ALPA National may have classified them differently, but that is your story and who knows better whether an MDA pilot is active U or not than the damn pilot. It is another paper shuffle to cover their own asses because this BS has been allowed to happen right under their noses.
The MEC's and your idea.....cut the whole damn mess loose to Republic, to hell with the furlouged pilots, blame it on training costs, get a merger deal at any cost no matter what the ramifications, and forget the whole bad dream. If this isn't your position, I am sure the MDA pilots would love to hear it!
320, wake up.....you were furloughed from UAL at a time when ALPA was a good union. You owe your whole career to the ALPA brotherhood because they got you a job with another carrier when you lost your UAL job. Don't snub the sacrifices of them and those before them by hiding behind some BS and cutting them loose. Your integrity and the integrity of the whole profession/union is riding on this. Screw it up and the foundation of ALPA may be on very soggy soil.
Sweet dreams,
Boomer
I owe you an apology.....you do GET IT! The $1K question......
How do we account for it?
I will tell you how. You and your MEC bozos created this mess of a situation. There are several options available to the MEC, none of them is painless and of course it will take LEADERSHIP to pull any of them off......LEADERSHIP which is sorely lacking at the U MEC and ALPA National.
First, the easy way. ALL U pilots on the seniority list must be included in the merger. It may be easy to go into the gentle good nighty with your new brothers the AWA pilots.....but before you get all cuddly with them, you must remember the 2000 of your own that are currently twisting in the wind. It is no secret that this MEC will lay something down at the altar in the name of getting the merger done to save their own bacon and we all know that when the going gets tough, this MEC runs and hides and cries that there was no other way. Get off your butt and fight for them. They deserve it and their sacrifice DEMANDS your action on their behalf. No disrespect to the AWA folks, but if the situation was reversed, what do you think their position would be? Hint: They aren't about to sacrifice ANY of their pilots, even ones still on probation. You could learn a lot from them..... I digress.
Second the hard way. These jobs are USAirways pilots jobs. Worse case is the entire MDA system must come up for bid to all the APL pilots to see who takes the jobs, and those jobs are included in the merger with the same protections that your sorry butt has. This would have the effect of possibly putting some people currently working out of work, but the pain for that can be laid squarely at the feet of this MEC for coming up and allowing such a convoluted group to be employed on the U pilot seniority list. Either way, seniority RULES. ALPA National may have classified them differently, but that is your story and who knows better whether an MDA pilot is active U or not than the damn pilot. It is another paper shuffle to cover their own asses because this BS has been allowed to happen right under their noses.
The MEC's and your idea.....cut the whole damn mess loose to Republic, to hell with the furlouged pilots, blame it on training costs, get a merger deal at any cost no matter what the ramifications, and forget the whole bad dream. If this isn't your position, I am sure the MDA pilots would love to hear it!
320, wake up.....you were furloughed from UAL at a time when ALPA was a good union. You owe your whole career to the ALPA brotherhood because they got you a job with another carrier when you lost your UAL job. Don't snub the sacrifices of them and those before them by hiding behind some BS and cutting them loose. Your integrity and the integrity of the whole profession/union is riding on this. Screw it up and the foundation of ALPA may be on very soggy soil.
Sweet dreams,
Boomer
No, I played that game for years Passed Over. Your ID's say US Airways Express, and lists your Company Name on there too. Your company is not part of US Airways INC.
US Airways Inc is not the same thing as what you are thinking of, you are thinking of US Airways Group, that is the corporate entity that owns US Airways Inc and your airline. US Airways Inc., PSA, Piedmont, SSO, and about three other companies are considered wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways Group.
So in essense you are in a separate, but an equal part of the overall corporation that owns and opearates both your company and the one I am at (US Airways Inc).
For years the AAA MEC has been able to maintain a level of separation between itself and the other ALPA carriers that make up US Airways Group, since you work for a separate airline, with it's own certificate and union. I do not.
That's why all the fuss.
MDA is as much a part of US Airways Inc, and as much a part of the AAA pilot group as any other Active AAA member involved in any other kind of AAA flying...
The US Airways Merger committee will not present the number of Aircraft at PSA not Piedmont because they are separate companies, and neither pilot group is being merged into the America West Pilots Group...
But they must present the proper number of active planes and pilots (when the merger is approved and a "snapshot" is to be taken) at US Airways Inc. And that includes MDA, not just the Airbuses and Boeings...
Hope that helps
US Airways Inc is not the same thing as what you are thinking of, you are thinking of US Airways Group, that is the corporate entity that owns US Airways Inc and your airline. US Airways Inc., PSA, Piedmont, SSO, and about three other companies are considered wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways Group.
So in essense you are in a separate, but an equal part of the overall corporation that owns and opearates both your company and the one I am at (US Airways Inc).
For years the AAA MEC has been able to maintain a level of separation between itself and the other ALPA carriers that make up US Airways Group, since you work for a separate airline, with it's own certificate and union. I do not.
That's why all the fuss.
MDA is as much a part of US Airways Inc, and as much a part of the AAA pilot group as any other Active AAA member involved in any other kind of AAA flying...
The US Airways Merger committee will not present the number of Aircraft at PSA not Piedmont because they are separate companies, and neither pilot group is being merged into the America West Pilots Group...
But they must present the proper number of active planes and pilots (when the merger is approved and a "snapshot" is to be taken) at US Airways Inc. And that includes MDA, not just the Airbuses and Boeings...
Hope that helps
First of all the National Mediation Board determines "Class and Craft", not ALPA or any other union.USA320Pilot said:
Second if they were a differant class and craft, they would have a seperate agreement, possibly a seperate union and only the members that work at MDA would be on the negotiating committee, they would have their own MEC officers and have nothing to do with Mainline pilots representing them.
But once again, don't let the facts get in your way.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
Exactly, Rico. That's why the latest ALPA MEC foray into negotiating with expedited arbitration as a backup is a lost cause. MDA is US Airways Inc and vice versa. All the company has to say to the arbitrator to seal the deal is "If ALPA can produce a single document that proves that MDA is a separate corporate entity like PSA or Piedmont, we'll concede the point." ALPA will be unable to do that.Rico said:
Unless events take ALPA off the hook - like the Republic sale - before the snapshot is taken. And who controls when the snapshot is taken?Rico said:
Jim
Crzipilot
Veteran
- Mar 23, 2004
- 906
- 254
Rico,
Agree and understand your comments regarding the difference between Inc. and Group.
I think what he may have been trying to relate though is the CEL list. As in effect, and the way that "ALPA" described it at one time, is with the CEL list and MDA etc...the wholly owned pilots would be able to flow up to Mainline via MDA or straight to mainline I believe. Now this was accomated for the bending over the WO's took for the j4j agreements. I firmly believe the MDA pilots should be included, and at the same time......the CEL list needs to be included in whatever agreements that are negotiated. So in effect, a psuedo merging of the CEL list into the merged AWA/US list. I.E. On the bottom, so when the combined entity needs pilots they come up. Or even some sort of fence to protect what they were given for the flow down.
Agree and understand your comments regarding the difference between Inc. and Group.
I think what he may have been trying to relate though is the CEL list. As in effect, and the way that "ALPA" described it at one time, is with the CEL list and MDA etc...the wholly owned pilots would be able to flow up to Mainline via MDA or straight to mainline I believe. Now this was accomated for the bending over the WO's took for the j4j agreements. I firmly believe the MDA pilots should be included, and at the same time......the CEL list needs to be included in whatever agreements that are negotiated. So in effect, a psuedo merging of the CEL list into the merged AWA/US list. I.E. On the bottom, so when the combined entity needs pilots they come up. Or even some sort of fence to protect what they were given for the flow down.
Rico and all the other MDA guys,
Sorry to say you have just been screwed over again, as all other non-mainline, and junior U pilots have for all the past history. You don't really expect any support from ALPA, do you? You must be dreaming!
Grab ahold and hang on. It only hurt for a little while
..........and you really thought you were mainline.............welcome back!
Sorry to say you have just been screwed over again, as all other non-mainline, and junior U pilots have for all the past history. You don't really expect any support from ALPA, do you? You must be dreaming!
Grab ahold and hang on. It only hurt for a little while
..........and you really thought you were mainline.............welcome back!
The issue is not one of "screwing", it's that you have to have a "position or a job." MDA's assets are being sold such as the EMB-170s and MDA - Mainline flying comes from two different/distinct divisions that do not have biddable positions between the two operations. Do I like this? No, in fact many junior reserve mainline First Officers would like to bid MDA, but they cannot due to the contract
The companies are likely not going to over staff the airline during the integration because we want them to; they're going to cut the workforce to the bone by increasing productivity. Thus, how do you create a job or position for a group of employees whose aircraft and positions are being sold?
There is not one, not one pilot, or ALPA member that wants to see anybody get hurt or furloughed. To suggest that ALPA is screwing anybody is nonsensical. The MDA pilots are furloughed mainline pilots or CEL pilots and there flying is being sold.
Can I or any other pilot help that? No, of course not.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
The companies are likely not going to over staff the airline during the integration because we want them to; they're going to cut the workforce to the bone by increasing productivity. Thus, how do you create a job or position for a group of employees whose aircraft and positions are being sold?
There is not one, not one pilot, or ALPA member that wants to see anybody get hurt or furloughed. To suggest that ALPA is screwing anybody is nonsensical. The MDA pilots are furloughed mainline pilots or CEL pilots and there flying is being sold.
Can I or any other pilot help that? No, of course not.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
The way I read the Certificate, MDA is USAIRWAYS.
http://av-info.faa.gov/detail.asp?DSGN_COD...=US+AIRWAYS+INC
Eat the Young, that is ALPO's Motto.
http://av-info.faa.gov/detail.asp?DSGN_COD...=US+AIRWAYS+INC
Eat the Young, that is ALPO's Motto.
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