More Cuts Wanted

[Bob Owens]

Chip;
What difference does it make who I work for? Who do you work for and in what capacity? Surely you recognize that our wages are influenced more by what other workers doing the same job make within our industry earn more than any other factor. You have the advantage of knowing more about me than I do you so instead of disputing what I've said you fall back to the fact that I dont work for USAIR. I probably have more in common with USAIRs mechanics than you do. I do the same work. Earn a similar amount of money.I work similar hours under similar conditions. You had plenty to say about why those guys should accept concessions. Are you a mechanic? Would you have to live under the conditions that you are advocating for them? My guess is that you are a Pilot in Mgmt still earning six figures working 80 hours at best a month.

 

[chipmunn]

[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]Bob:[/FONT][/P]
[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]I do not post on the AA board; however, Moderators have moved some of my messages to the AA board. The issue is that all airlines, except low cost carriers, cannot afford the current labor contracts negotiated during stronger economic times. [/FONT][/P]
[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]Your mtoives are transparent, but in my opinion you have elected to ignore the fact that airlines cannot take in sufficent revenue to cover their costs. Nobody likes it, but this is a fact. However, with Wall Street reports revenue may be returning and if there is no Middle East war, I am very encouraged US will emerge and be a strng competitior that will provide long-term job security for its employees.[/FONT][/P]
[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]Chip[/FONT][/P]

 

[copilot]

Bob,

I'm not going to be as nice as Chip.

So don't start with the 80hrs a month BullS**t. You obviously have NO clue as to how a Airline Pilot is compensated, or how many hours of duty (at work) time is NOT payed for.

Go crawl in a hole and shove it!

 

[Bob Owens]

Chip;
Of course my motives are transparent. Ive been transparent in every way. You on the other hand are not. Transparancy is a good thging, you should try it sometimes, it means you have nothing to hide. You never did say who you work for or what you do.

To Copilot;
Shove what?
I know a lot of pilots work very hard. I think that what pilots on the bottom end get is disgracefull. There shouldnt be a pilot out there flying commercially that makes less than 50K a year. But you know as well as I that when they get to the top they fly less and get paid a lot more. Pilots are guaranteed a minimum amount of hours and if it doesnt get sceduled in dont they still get paid while sitting at home? As USAIR lays off their Junior pilots their costs actually go up because even with the cuts the Senior pilots make a lot more than the junior pilots that are getting laid off. Yea there is a lot of time that they dont get paid for but thats because of the way you guys negotiated your contracts-its screws the junior guys more than anyone else.

 

[UAL777flyer]

In ANY seniority based system, the junior guys/gals always get screwed. It's no different for mechanics, rampers, etc.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well it is different. You guys do it to each other harder, deeper and longer. Maybe under some circumstances that might be good. But not in this context. After all you’re doing it to your union brother or sister-not good.
A starting mechanic, at the bottom makes a little more than half of what a topped out mechanic makes. He will get to top pay in five years. I believe that Mechanics at the Regional carriers make around 80% of what mechanics make at the majors. Now I feel this is unacceptable, the difference should be less and so should the years but its no where near the spread between pilots. If I go out and work an MD-80 or a 777 the pay is the same. In some ways its easier to work the MD-80 in others its easier to work the 777. Doesn’t matter, its an airplane.
The pay scale of pilots varies greatly and less predictably. Long progressions and the availability of fleet types determine income. Really, is it harder to land that CAT III 777 than that CATII 727? But you get paid more for the 777.A lot more. The 777 is used on long trips so you get paid for nearly every hour worked, the poor slob in the RJ is up and down all day and he has to work like a dog to get the hours in. He is lucky if he gets paid for half the hours he puts in. He does it because he hopes that someday he will hit the jackpot, left set in a 777, working two weeks a month making $300K a year, million dollar retirement package at 60 etc. Pilots entering the industry just months apart can have very different careers, its more luck than anything. Meanwhile all pilots get branded as earning these huge salaries, for the few at the top its great, but when contracts become due all the public sees is those guys with the $300k working two weeks a month. These are the same guys who are the most willing to give pay cuts and tell everyone else that they should do the same. To protect their buts.

 

[diogenes]

The issue is that all airlines, except low cost carriers, cannot afford the current labor contracts negotiated during stronger economic times. [/FONT][/P]


Chip,

Kindly explain which WN work group gets paid less than their counterpart At U

 

[apofurlough]

Chip,

Kindly explain which WN work group gets paid less than their counterpart At U


Customer service for one I interviewed with them at the same time I interviewed with US I would have had to wait three years to make starting salary at US. Maybe I would have been better off though - WN had no layoffs. I have been laidoff for over a year now and just found out another former co-worker at US was just given a furlough packet so doesn't look like I have much of a shot at coming back anytime soon.

 

[chipmunn]

Diogenes:

I have often said the problem with mature carrier labor expense is not W-2, it's productivity. This increases head count that raises total labor expense. For example, US has the highest sick time in the industry. This does not help produce profits.;

Other areas of cost differential is benefits, defined contribution vs defined benefit retirement plans, and
WN has overtime policies for all work groups.

The biggest difference between low cost and mature carriers is the business model. These airlines operate point-to-point vs hub service, have one versus multiple fleet types, and create economies of scale.

No mature airline will ever have the capability to match the WN business model, but adjustments can be made to compete.

Chip

 

[chipmunn]

Diogenes:

Diogenes: Chip; ok, I'll bite - show me in U's fleet service contract exactly where we could be more productive.

Chip answers: Dio, to do a fair comparison I would need the contracts of both US & WN, which if you provide me with these two documents I would do an in-depth analysis and post the information in a Chip's Corner article.

However, let me provide a few observations.

At some carriers they have a system similar to US Fleet Service at cities without the IAM-M & IAM-FSA. These personnel park, load, clean, and push aircraft with three employees, all working under the same contract, and in many cases do this with only part-time employees.

Southwest is one of these airlines.

However, at some US stations (now reduced I believe to seven stations) the airline has a mechanic on the tug, a utility wing walker, and two baggage handlers. Therefore, the airline has at least four employees to perform these functions who all work under different contracts.

Why not take the mechanics off of the tugs, pay mechanics a license premium when they fix or work on aircraft, and create one job title called Ramp Personnel for aircraft servicing, cleaning, and R&D? AT some airlines I have seen three employees accomplish this task.

The challenge for the unions is this would eliminate one job, but it would make the airline more efficient, reduce labor cost, and improve profits. Profits that could be plowed back into the airline to grow ASMs, providing more jobs that would be more secure.

Another area that bothers me is across-the-board US has the highest industry sick usage. This creates unnecessary labor expense and excess employees, further driving up labor expense.

I believe cross-utilization of employees to make a company more lean and mean is appropriate, especially in today's difficult times.

Chip

 

[diogenes]

APO, my bad; let me rephrase. Which WN group tops out at less than their counterpart at U? Hint: It ain't customer or fleet service.

Chip; ok, I'll bite - show me in U's fleet service contract exactly where we could be more productive.

Dio.

 

[cubfan02us]

Mgt will do what it takes to insure U's survival.
That's good,but don't ask for more paycuts.Park some
more jets,give some more flying to the commuters,heck
their rpm's are all up 50%,make 'em 60 or 70%.
Give more market share to our competitors,we can always
get it back,as soon as we get this figured out.
I say Reduced pay to the last day!

 

[Lakeguy67]

Chip, Southwest does not use part time and their fleet service agents make more then US' Fleet Service

 

[pitguy]

Heh! Are they still paying pilots 'not' to fly?

 

[diogenes]

Chip,
You seem certain productivity is the answer, in the form of labor giving something up. I agree about the productivity - but I think it's about a more efficient use of resources.

Fleet and customer service - cross utilization is prescribed in the contracts for class II (small) stations. Nowhere does management utilize it. As for large stations or hubs, cross-utilization is not a panacea. PI was the hustlingest, go get it outfit I ever saw or worked for. In its small stations, every agent worked everyplace, and for good reason. If a guy banged in sick, small stations do not have the staffing to call in only those trained in a particular area. Frequently, there was only a pool of two or three people available - beggars can't be choosers! In the large stations, we specialized by department, for a number of very good reasons. Training everyone for everywhere, maintaining schedules, shift trades, etc. would be cost-prohibitive. Large stations have many 'specialist' functions that do not exist in small stations. I figure those reasons still apply. So U has at the ready a staffing scheme similiar to PI - it just doesn't use it.

Mech - As you say, R & D is being reduced to 7 stations - that is not going to make or break U. I will say we've been pushing, deicing, cleaning, and now security checks in a non mech location for years with nary a hitch.

What I'm saying is, there is not enough left in the CWA/IAM contracts, productivity-wise, to solve U's problem. And as fleet and customer service have no pension, we can't help there, either. So short of W2 cuts, there is no there, there.

As we speak, a topped out WN fleet guy makes $25. We make $19, enroute to $13.01 via MDA. That's bu//sh*t, any way you slice it.