Negative Air

Clue,

Very true regarding DL organizing effort that failed. However, Hindsight is always 20/20. In 1996 the Board voted to organize the huge airline of f/as, and when taking on this type of endeavor, you can't go in there half-heartedly. You make a big push and a big effort to organize this group. The organizing effort actually raised the "bar" for wages for DL. In order for their management to keep the unions OUT, they made every effort to give their f/as no reason to unionize. So, DL did benefit, and so did the unionized workers in their own negotiations with their own airlines, in that, by having a large group of f/as (DL)having nice wage, they could better negotiate their own wage increases by having a higher bar to gage. In a Union business, there is always more POWER and strength with MORE numbers. So, I don't believe it was a failure, as AFA was pursuing its "mission statement or premise". Plus, our organization was pretty sound just up to a year ago as we had $1.2 Million in "reserves" and NO dues, (constant $39 per month, and a tax wrtie off to boot), increases for 10 years. The flight attendant job joses at U and UAL severly hurt AFA financially, being that these two airlines are the biggest organized groups for AFA.

With regard to your above conclusion:

Then I guess our dialogue is all for none, cause you have the "spirit" of "survival of the fittest", and I am of the "spirit" of "I am my brother's keeper". If you look at this closer, between our extremes, there is an inherent "balance".

I didn't want or mean for this to get too philosophical. However, there must be much CHAOS in your life without "balance". In every piece of literature I have ever read and studied be it science, Math, Chemistry (organic and inorganic), physics,economics, astronomy, even human behavior (psych)....there is always this strive and push to reach a "balanced equation", for homostasis to occur....always striving for "equilibrium" or a neutral PH level; physical and abstract. This is the only way living things exist.

With regard to survival and Darwinism, I guess you must believe that U should have went under, (if infact, the demise of the carrier was even real). If U did not receive 2 "bailouts" from tax payer dollars, and all the deep major concessions from Labor along with BK where they got to literally "walk away" from contracts and unwanted, unsecured debt, it would have been "curtains" along with ALL the jobs..46,000, most in PA. There would have been a major rippled effect to the PA economy from that too. With assistance from else where, U survived; it didn't happen by itself. But, I assume in your mind...."survival of the fittest", with no compromise should rule the day.

Must be difficult for you to negotiate anything, I bet... you know, "give and take" type stuff.

Peace,
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Clue,

Also, with all due respect, you speak about ALPA having overinflated compensation. Let me say how I view this from a f/a prospective who has flown for 22 years for a living. These 2 pilots up front are responsible for a $40-50 million dollar piece of equipment along with approx 200 plus passengers, flying in all kinds of inclement weather, and possible mechanical problems, along with air rage, medical emergencies, hyjackings, terrorism threats etc... I think of them, sometimes as like atronuants flying a shuttle... anything can go wrong to take their lives our lives and all the passengers lives to Kingdom Come, and unlike the shuttle, not just one mission per year, but many per day, every day, all year long. I'm am not trying to say that being union is a "perfect, utopic" existence. Like any organization in life, there are inherent problems.

Can ALPA be more proactive in raising the "Express wage bar"? Definitely. And I beleive NOW you will see a push in that arena going forward. The same goes for AFA Express.

Do these guys deserve the bigger and better compensation. YOU BET! Do they deserve the RESPECT by ALL, YOU BET!

How come you never say anything about greed in the Corporate Arena? The extent of management's responsibilities is: Let's see if we can make our business plan work.... "if it doesn't work and we lose money...let's balance our books by taking from Labor, taxpayers, and even BK...to get it to work right". And then there's my favorite...."LET'S DOWN SIZE TO PROFITABLILTY".

Let's talk about HIGH PAYING execs...shall we with their OVER inflated salaries, perks, bonuses, stock, along with their "I'm-God-this-is-my-kingdom-and-who-are you" personalities...
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On 6/24/2003 3:41:48 PM diogenes wrote:

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On 6/23/2003 7:54:38 PM ClueByFour wrote:

Where you and I truly differ, all the silly bickering and "talking point" summaries aside, is that I don't believe in "equilibrium." I believe in social darwinism. The fittests will prosper. Want to get ahead in life? Work harder or smarter. With risk comes reward, and so forth.

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Dio states: Hummm, I have a different angle.

Socialism, or equal results, is impossible, not to mention it's bad science. We should all remember the Bell Curve; nature imposes a hierarchy.


In such a society, anyone who works hard and plays by the rules should be able to make ends meet. If you're lazy, tough luck. If you're disabled, I'm not ready to put you on an ice flow for the polar bears to eat. If you are truly gifted,such as Tiger Woods, or Warren Buffett, or Maya Angelou, you can play by the SAME RULES as the lowliest among us and do quite well. As one should.



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" who plays by the rules"....?

PITbull responds:Whose making the rules?

"If your lazy, tough luck, if your disabled"...

PITbull responds: Again, calls for Balancing the equation.
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And I fully realize unions do not believe in member differentiation - the best and worst fleet service guy gets paid the same.

In the broader society one does not have to belong to a union. In the narrower society that is Allegheny/US Air/US Airways, I support the Constitutional right to free assembly and the need for a union. I reluctantly accept the pragmatism, as I believe neither the company nor the union can be objective, of a seniority-based wage scale. Seniority ain''t all that, but management ''discretion'' is a thousand-fold worse. BT,DT, GTTS!

If I were unwilling to abide by such, as has been pointed out a time or two, I can always leave.

Nuances are a b**ch!
 
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On 6/23/2003 7:54:38 PM ClueByFour wrote:

Where you and I truly differ, all the silly bickering and "talking point" summaries aside, is that I don't believe in "equilibrium." I believe in social darwinism. The fittests will prosper. Want to get ahead in life? Work harder or smarter. With risk comes reward, and so forth.

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Hummm, I have a different angle.

Socialism, or equal results, is impossible, not to mention it's bad science. We should all remember the Bell Curve; nature imposes a hierarchy.

On the other hand, pure Darwinism is impossible, and a Hobbesian nightmare. The most fun example of this is the joke about George Bush (either one will do) that goes "did you hear about this guy born on third base, and grew up thinking he hit a triple?"

I tend to an analogy all Americans identify with - sports.

In my beloved state, who'd have thought ten years ago the UNC (University of National Champions) Tarheels would fail to make the NCAA tourney in the same two years the barely had a basketball team UNCW SeaHawks would wear Cinderella's slippers? You'd have been chased down with butterfly nets and carted off in a straitjacket.

Yet it happened, and here's why. The basketball court was the same at both ends. The refs called the same game at both ends. Both teams had equal access to resources. And in the end, the score told the story.

I'm not interested in equal outcomes or subsidizing the lazy or incompetent, and I'm not too hot on subsidizing corporations, which seems to draw a pass from most folks.

I am interested in a society, that as best it can, provides for it's citizens to be educated based on their abilities, instead of their bank book. For us to have the same basic access to investments (until historically recent times, impossible), political access (yeah, I can call Edwards and Dole anytime!) tax treatment (I should incorporate and move the business to Bermuda), etc. You get the drift.

In such a society, anyone who works hard and plays by the rules should be able to make ends meet. If you're lazy, tough luck. If you're disabled, I'm not ready to put you on an ice flow for the polar bears to eat. If you are truly gifted,such as Tiger Woods, or Warren Buffett, or Maya Angelou, you can play by the SAME RULES as the lowliest among us and do quite well. As one should.

Anyways, JM2C.
 
Hi, PB,

If we all had equal access to the political process, we all would make the rules - one person, one vote.

While Ken Lay's vote counted just the same as mine, his ill-gotten gains counted for a damsite more.

The only way we small fry can compete is to organize - as unions, as Planned Parenthood or Right to Life, as Handgun Control or the NRA. Whatever floats your boat.

We can outvote the vested interests; they will always outspend us. Unfortunately, it's easier to write a check than organize our friends, family and neighbors.

But it's a worthy fight!
 
Regarding executive compensation:

It still comes down to a broader and longer view: who is worth more in the end: Gangwal or Herb K. from Southwest? Gangwal took what he could get, which is his right and more power to him for doing it. Herb is filthy rich on his options, because he elected to take a shot at building a sucessful business rather than taking the money and running.

I support rewarding performance--even at extremely lucrative levels provided the return is produced.. I don''t like CEOs with guaranteed cash contracts, or silly numbers of options at silly fixed prices.

Regarding ALPA:

It''s a job requiring a good deal of intellect and extremely good judgement. Life and death scenarios. A specialty license.

Cops need many of those. Cops don''t make $300,000/year. I''m also an egotistical SOB--my PPL w/IFR (and, if the economy would ever rebound, multi) ticket required a great deal of learning, but did not strike me as a superhuman feat. I respect the fact that many mainline pilots have spent years schlepping freight or building hours as a CFI--I also think that the world would be a better place if they could get decent pay from the get-go. Look at the way many of the European''s handle flight training. I''m not sure about the wisdom about putting a sub-1000 hour guy in the pointy end of a 744, but it happens regularly. I''m disgusted by the ALPA policy of eating it''s young. Such a great example.

In any case, I can''t fathom hitching myself to someone else''s train or willingness to better him/herself, and just having to "wait it out" (eg. seniority) to advance in my career.
 
Clue,

Police officers, as great and as much respect I hve for them, do not work with an approx. $50,000,000 piece of equipment that is solely their responisbility. OR having the average police officer who on a daily basis is responsible for approx 1,000 people''s lives, and driving them in a police car every single day they work.
 
Are you serious? Law enforcement is responsible for me, you and everyone they are around 24/7. Every cop is armed whether they are on or off duty. I''m not a cop but I don''t think they have less responsibility.