New 18% Paycut For Pilots

[TechBoy]

Does an experienced doctor who makes a ton of $, work harder when he prescribes aspirin than a brand new resident? Of course not. He/she doesn't get paid large sums of money (rightly so) for all the prescriptions written. They are paid commesurate to experience and years of practice, and knowing what to do that one time it really counts and someone's life is on the line.

...

As the size of the aircraft increases, so does the responsibilty, required experience, and everything mentioned above, if not the actual physical labor of pushing buttons.

[post="199825"][/post]​

I think your doctor analogy works against you here. If the doc should be paid the same for aspirin as for Vioxx, then the pilot should get paid the same whether it's a 737 or 747.

As for aircraft size, I'm not sure it your arguments always apply. Maybe transoceanic flights require more, but that means that 767 should get the same as 747 over the ponds and that 777 on domestic routes should get the same as 737. I don't think that's the case.

I'm not knocking pilots here. I just think that ALPA (when it had market power) created a pay scale that is not tied to market realities. Pay for experience is a good thing, but the only experience that ALPA counts in UA experience. If a 20 year pilot starts at UA (or any other carrier), they get paid like a rookie. In my world, we pay people what they are worth (or at least try to) and someone with better skills and experience will get hired in above me if appropriate. Likewise, I supervise people who are older than me because I have demonstrated more ability. That is how we develop talent. I recognize that you can't really to individual determinations on 5000 pilots, but tying pay to size of aircraft just doesn't bear any resemblance to market forces.

Regardless, of who is right on this, it seems clear to me that top and bottom wages at major airlines will continue to be compressed going forward.

 

[C54Capt]

Tech Boy,

You are correct in how the compensation model "should" work, however, due to the subjective nature of "pilot skills" the old seniority systems is what the industry is stuck with. Date of Hire is the only thing that counts. The demograpic for the best pilots in the industry certainly span all aircraft models and airline companies. So we must not be fooled by the notion that all the good pilots are in the wide-bodies and all the marginal pilots are flying RJs. Experience is merely one factor in determining whether a pilot is any good or not.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< Capt. I have a question for you! When the flight Crew engages the "Auto-Pilot", who is flying the aircraft???? Answeer: Maintenance! And how often do they do that???? Answeer:------- 😛

 

[mrfish3726]

And don't forget FISH soon FRT will be Chapt 7 😛 😛 😛 😛

[post="199712"][/post]​

Your SOOOOOOO FUNNY there 787, dream on dude. We'll see who is CH7 in the near future??? By the way you find out who I am yet so you can come over here and give me that A$$ whipping???

How big of an old boy are you anyway. After you see me, you might be wishing you brought a lunch cause I know I'd eat your lunch.

I'll be on you like a RAT ON A CHITTO!!!!

I'll put my foot so far up your A$$ you'll be tasting the polish on my boot!!

UAL is well on the road to certain death, so live the reality dude. We aren't immune from the troubles the industry is having. But, even for our size OUR BALANCE SHEET is still better than UniTED'S.

By the way I am still looking for those 3Q stats on TED. How much profit/loss they made and it's load factors. Or are they always going to be calculated under UAL 3Q results because it truly isn't a company in a company just part of UniTED like the old shuttle. Who thinks up these stupid ideas????

Remember 787, if they don't fire the top 200 people at UniTED things will always remain the same!!!!

 

[mrfish3726]

There are a lot of pilots out there some good, some not so good. But, with the shake up of the industry it is no different for FA'S, Mechanics, or ground personnel. There are some good and some not so good.

I will tell you from experience, when I first showed up at UAL at LAX (“97â€￾) and I got some senior UAL mechanic (I had more years in the industry than he did and a much broader background) telling me not to do more than one pinkie a night, I knew then and there exactly what I had gotten myself into. I worked with a lot of good mechanics at UAL but like any other place I worked with some real slugs to.

You can have 30 years at UniTED as a mechanic, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your one of their ace mechanics. You just have more time, same as a F/A, Pilot, or ground guy. Having tons of time doesn't mean you know what your doing.

Example, just because a guy that is laid off from UAL goes to work 3rd party maintenance doesn't make him or his work any more inferior to some that are left at UAL. Even a doctor with 30+ years of experience isn't immune from cutting off the wrong body part.

As more and more people are displaced from companies like USAIR, UAL, Delta, ECT. ECT. Just because they come to a fun company like F9, you treat them as inferior even though they use to walk in your shoes. F9 like any other LCC is reaping the rewards of the displaced and shunned workers from the disasters you all call GOOD COMPANIES.

C54CAPT, its good to have all the experienced pilots we can get our hands on. Lord knows that we can get the pick of the crop right now. Same for F/A’s, Mechanics, Ground crews, there are piles of resumes of people looking to move on from companies like UALHELL.

 

[C54Capt]

<_< Capt. I have a question for you! When the flight Crew engages the "Auto-Pilot", who is flying the aircraft???? Answeer: Maintenance! And how often do they do that???? Answeer:------- 😛

[post="199905"][/post]​

MCI,

I agree. Standard proceedure is to use the highest degree of automation as possible. And yes, the reliability of that automation is directly related to maintenance. Good job boys, you have made my life wonderful.

However, if the automation fails and all hell breaks lose, I am going to be there to bring the 600 mph metal tube back to earth in a safe manner. That is what I am paid to do. Fortunately, with today's technology, I am required to do that on only very rare occassions, however, the margin for error is zero. What are your margins?

 

[luvn737s]

Remember that those WN captains went through many years of below average pay in order to build a strong business. Now they are reaping the rewards. What is wrong with that?

[post="199529"][/post]​

Um, they're still earning low wages. The rest of the industry has (temporarily) come down to meet them. In order to maintain a competitive advantage, they will be forced to accept pay cuts as well in the future.

ATA pilots earn considerably less than their WN counter parts, but ATA is in CH11. How could that be?? I thought low pilot wages guaranteed success.

Reaping rewards, eh? More like a bitter harvest.

 

[TechBoy]

Um, they're still earning low wages. The rest of the industry has (temporarily) come down to meet them. In order to maintain a competitive advantage, they will be forced to accept pay cuts as well in the future.

ATA pilots earn considerably less than their WN counter parts, but ATA is in CH11. How could that be?? I thought low pilot wages guaranteed success.

Reaping rewards, eh? More like a bitter harvest.

[post="200056"][/post]​

I'm not sure a six figure salary can be considered "low wages" but I guess when some make $250k it all looks relative.

As for the bitter harvest, I don't mean to throw stones, but I think that the bitter harvest came in part from choking the golden goose.

Like most people, there are days (like yesterday!) when I feel grossly underpaid and other days when I feel grossly overpaid. Fortunately, there are only about a couple of dozen people who can do what I do and demand is high for me right now. I have no doubt that will change at some point and I will have to adjust to different circumstances. That is why I don't spend all of the big bucks that I make now. When the time comes, I won't have to adjust my lifestyle. I'm sure lots of pilots did the same.

The people who are really suffering from all this are the FA/CSA-types who don't make much to begin with.

 

[michael707767]

I think your doctor analogy works against you here. If the doc should be paid the same for aspirin as for Vioxx, then the pilot should get paid the same whether it's a 737 or 747.

[post="199856"][/post]​

Sounds good to me. Hey, that should also mean the CEO of UAL should get paid the same as the CEO of Cape Air right? I mean, even though Cape Air flies C-310s and only has about 20 airplanes, a CEO is a CEO, right?

 

[TechBoy]

Sounds good to me. Hey, that should also mean the CEO of UAL should get paid the same as the CEO of Cape Air right? I mean, even though Cape Air flies C-310s and only has about 20 airplanes, a CEO is a CEO, right?

[post="200381"][/post]​

The Cape Air guy should probably get more as I doubt he's lost as much money as UA has.

 

[Borescope]

Please name an established carrier in the US that does not require a degree to fly a widebody, because I can't think of one.

[post="199624"][/post]​

Carriers don't care if you have a degree in under water basket weaving or a Ph.D from Harvard.

Would you want to ride on a LAX-Sydney flight with a pimpely 23 year old as your Captain?

[post="199624"][/post]​

Would you want to ride on a LAX-SFO flight with a pimpely 23 year old as your Captain?

Would you want to fly with the guy driving the nice car or the one who has to take the bus to the airport?

[post="199624"][/post]​

darkclouds says: "How about a cab ride from the airport. I pay about $10 and $3 tip for taking me about 5 miles." We probably should ride on your flights should we?

Money attracts the best, if its not there the best go elsewhere.

[post="199624"][/post]​

True in most industries, but not the airlines. In the airline business they get the most money, but not because they are the best,(most are but not all)but because they have been there long enough to excercise their senority rights to the seat. They aren't going to go elsewhere because of this senority system throughout the industry.

 

[darkclouds]

Carriers don't care if you have a degree in under water basket weaving or a Ph.D from Harvard.

Borescope, I assume from your reply you had no formal training of any type prior to getting hired?

In regard to pilot hiring, what did your United pilot application look like? How did the point system work? Do you get points for a degree.. an advanced degree?

You are wrong about degrees for pilots at UA. The only pilots I know that don't have degree's are the one's who got interviews from other departments..mostly maint. and operations. 99% of the military and civilian guy's have degree's here at UA. We have lawyers, doctors, engineers, and other professionals who left lucrative jobs to fly here because they love flying and the potential of good earnings.

I'm not saying you need it to do the job, but it is a hoop you need to jump thru to get the job. Does it make you a better pilot? Of course not but it weeds out those that don't have the persistence, dedication, drive, and smarts to get one. Makes it easier to find those who meet the profile of a successful pilot employee. My friends from my early days of flying who weren't very motivated, didn't get degrees are working on the fringes, flying for the crummy operators.

Of course there are exceptions. But if the rewards are low we will be getting those guys from the bottom of the barrel.

I'm sure in the future, when the pay, benefits, and working conditions really suck, there will still be plenty of applicants for pilot jobs. What does that prove?


Show me one industry where the quality of the applicants goes up when the compensation goes down?

 

[JungleClone]

Can we please stop the endless doctor vs. pilot debate? It really is irrelevant to the current situation because it's all about what the market will bear. Given the continued destruction of the airline industry, airline management holds all the cards. Those carriers in bankruptcy have all the leverage they need to re-shape labor costs and contracts as they see fit. The only real card the unions have to play is striking their airline and shutting it down for good. Are pilots going to do that? You'll see other unions do it long before pilots. Why? Because pilots are more vested in the success or failure of their carriers based upon the time/expense put into attaining their qualifications and the fact that they'd start over somewhere else IF they're lucky enough to get hired in severely depressed hiring environment. And that's now. Put thousands more pilots on the street in a shutdown and the odds of getting another decent flying job with an airline go down considerably. So the unending comparisons to doctors are really pointless. Look, I don't begrudge the money pilots make. But considering the industry they work in, the days of commanding 6 figure salaries are fast declining. The healthcare industry is not an accurate comparison for obvious reasons. We're only hitting the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the restructuring of this industry. When it's all said and done, we'll all be working more for less. The only way to stabilize this lowering tide is to rid this industry of 2-3 large, network airlines and all the capacity they have. The airlines can then leverage fares up and begin to recoup the years of losses.

 

[Borescope]

The only way to stabilize this lowering tide is to rid this industry of 2-3 large, network airlines and all the capacity they have.

[post="201803"][/post]​

Which ones do you suggest??

 

[Winglet]

Bankruptsy is now an ordinary management tool to compensate for inept strategic and tactical management. That needs to stop. In an industry rocked by 25% too much capacity, doubling of fuel costs, etc. the weakest of the carriers need to fold.

That means US Airways, ATA, and UA.