New 18% Paycut For Pilots

[ualdriver]

You guys can put all the spin you want on how it breaks out per mechanic or whatever. The company said they need 750M. They took each employee group and determined what % of the total payroll that employee group makes up of the total, and assigned that % to the 750M asked for. You couldn't ask for a more fair way to assign pay cuts. I wish they had done it that way the first time.

These aren't section 6 negotiations. Each employee group is going to have to fill the "bucket" in front of them with pay cuts or work rules or some combination of both, or we all start at the bottom of someone elses' pay scale if we choose to stay in the aviation business. It's pretty simple.

Using your logic, pilots make up 25% of the payroll, there are 7000 pilots +/- on the property, and that works out to around $26,700 per pilot. However, I know I won't be giving up that much, even if it was all taken as a paycut because there are OTHER things that the company is tying a dollar value to that will reduce that number (pension cancellation, heath care changes, etc., etc.). So I think you guys need to let go of that $16,000 figure (I see a max of 9% pay cut on your term sheet, 5% base) as I doubt your negotiators will take a straight pay cut as well and other items will reduce that number. But who knows. I only know ALPA stuff.

And if the above doesn't fly, fine. Burn the house down. Hell, if you guys are going to strike/Chaos, why wait? Do it now so the company can shut down early and we can have Christmas and New Year's off with our families. After this week's pay check, we are basically two pay checks away from either a strike, CHAOS, sickouts, uprising, rebolt, sick outs, slow downs, that will finish the company or sucking it up and going forward. My family is ready for either path. Hopefully the guys/gals who are talking tough and their peers and families are too.

 

[Fly]

After this week's pay check, we are basically two pay checks away from either a strike, CHAOS, sickouts, uprising, rebolt, sick outs, slow downs, that will finish the company or sucking it up and going forward.

[post="228532"][/post]​

Deja vu....sounds like the summer of 2000

 

[ualdriver]

Actually, what is about to happen in mid-January is nothing like the much exaggerated summer of 2000.

 

[kcabpilot]

You guys can put all the spin you want on how it breaks out per mechanic or whatever.

I know I won't be giving up that much, even if it was all taken as a paycut because there are OTHER things that the company is tying a dollar value to that will reduce that number (pension cancellation, heath care changes, etc., etc.).

[post="228532"][/post]​

No spin ualdriver, just simple math.

Now, I hope you're sitting down because the $750 million does NOT include the pension cancellations.

 

[ualdriver]

You're right it doesn't, I forgot. I wish it did though.

However, I still disagree with your initial "spin" that suggests/infers that your group that averages $64K a year (your words) are going to see $16,800 less in their paycheck next year. If that's what you are implying, I think you're wrong. However, if you want to divide the dollar value of your group's bucket by the number of the members that are in your group sitting in front of the bucket, fine. I'm not sure what the purpose of doing that would be other than to practice your math skills. Unless you guys negotiate differently, it seems to me that you're looking at a 5% paycut with a max of 9% depending on the circumstances. And it also seems to me that no matter how you cut it, divide it out, spin it, etc., assuming we have a company next month, your group will be giving their fair share of the required $750M- no more, no less.

 

[spacewaitress]

Actually, what is about to happen in mid-January is nothing like the much exaggerated summer of 2000.

[post="228624"][/post]​

As usual, an implied "we're not responsible."

The only thing exaggerated about the summer of 2k was your action. But I guess it's okay for you Gods and not the rest of us.

Your (group's) predictable hypocrisy.

 

[ualdriver]

Spacewaitress-

I assume you're not a pilot nor were you in the cockpits of the aircraft that flew that summer. I was. I read what the newspapers wrote. I read what was posted on the forums. I heard what my fellow employees "thought." I know it's really fun for you and others to bash pilots, management, or whoever else makes more than you, but the simple point of the matter is that the events of that summer were GREATLY EXAGGERARTED. Period. Believe what you want, I'll believe what I want.

You want to talk about hypocrisy? How many f/a's have been on this forum bashing the much exaggerated Summer of 2000 for years but think it's OK to threaten CHAOS publicly now? One is ok but not the other? It's not OK for a FEW pilots to express their consternation with the progress of SECTION 6 negotiations, but it's OK for the UA AFA to threaten job action if any AFA airline has their contract abrogated? Yup, you're right. There is a lot of hypocrisy.

And for the record, I never said it was OK or NOT OK for the UA AFA to do what they want. In fact, start CHAOS tomorrow. I need the holidays off.

And stop calling pilots "Gods." That is completely moronic.

 

[spacewaitress]

And stop calling pilots "Gods." That is completely moronic.

[post="228664"][/post]​

Your denial of responsibility only confirms your belief. Take a look in the mirror buddy.

 

[Fly]

I was working the summer of 2000. It was the very first time I stopped having tags on my bags. I changed clothes and had NO identifying tags to say I was anything but a regular person. I was embarressed to work for United. Maybe it didn't seem like a big deal to pilots, but that's because they were holed up either inside the cockpit (with the door closed) or in operations. While they were hiding, the f/a's spent hours and hours and hours....for no pay I remind you.........trying to calm down pissed off people. (CS too)

My sadest experience happened when I saw a woman who was about 35 years old just sit into a chair and start crying so hard she couldn't stop......she was trying to get to EWR because her Dad was dying, but she was not going to be able to get on the plane. I was supposed to deadhead that night, and right there decided to give away my ticket (and job?), I gave her my ticket. My heart broke for her, and it wasn't worth her not being there. She was so desperate, she didn't even seem to register what I had given her......her heart was broken.

DO NOT TRY TO INSINUATE THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE TYPE OF PAIN YOU CAUSED.

So, sorry ualDriver, we aren't exagerating. We did this day after day after day. Did the pilots keep the doors of the cockpit open and explain the problem?

It was a horrible time for everyone (pilots included) but it certainly made an impact on our customers and maybe destroyed the actual chance that this airline may thrive.

 

[ualdriver]

Guys, I'm done trying to explain that summer. Yup, it was a grand conspiracy. Every pilot at UAL was secretly trying to screw everyone over. We were calling out sick, missing our trips, hiding in ops, anything we could do to screw people over. I personally cancelled at least 15 trips because there wasn't the proper toppings on my desset. And yes, the airline was properly staffed with enough pilots to operate the system, despite what ALPA was telling the company the previous winter/spring. We weren't short staffed at all. And the airports, they could handle all the aircraft that the airlines tried to stuff into them. 120+ aircraft per hour into ORD with summertime thunderstorms- no problem! It was all us. And yes, the summer of 2000 is the reason today we're in bankruptcy. It cost the airline billions and billions and billions of dollars. The stuff about LCC's reaching critical mass, oil prices, perfect pricing on the internet putting UAL in its current predicament- all false. It was the summer of 2000 that put us here. And the stories in the newspapers- all true. Every one of them. I thought I could hide all this stuff but I can't anymore. Now I guess I can look in the mirror again now that it's all off my chest.

 

[The Ronin]

Guys, I'm done trying to explain that summer. Yup, it was a grand conspiracy. Every pilot at UAL was secretly trying to screw everyone over. We were calling out sick, missing our trips, hiding in ops, anything we could do to screw people over. I personally cancelled at least 15 trips because there wasn't the proper toppings on my desset. And yes, the airline was properly staffed with enough pilots to operate the system, despite what ALPA was telling the company the previous winter/spring. We weren't short staffed at all. And the airports, they could handle all the aircraft that the airlines tried to stuff into them. 120+ aircraft per hour into ORD with summertime thunderstorms- no problem! It was all us. And yes, the summer of 2000 is the reason today we're in bankruptcy. It cost the airline billions and billions and billions of dollars. The stuff about LCC's reaching critical mass, oil prices, perfect pricing on the internet putting UAL in its current predicament- all false. It was the summer of 2000 that put us here. And the stories in the newspapers- all true. Every one of them. I thought I could hide all this stuff but I can't anymore. Now I guess I can look in the mirror again now that it's all off my chest.

[post="228764"][/post]​

"To be honest with one's self is the first beginning on the path to enlightenment....."

 

[spacewaitress]

I remember now...the planets aligned and the earth shifted on its axis that summer. Damn, nearly forgot.

 

[Fly]

Read this on another site, think it says it all.



And don't let anybody tell you that the pilots have now "contributed their fair share."
Fact is, the Company's request of less than $200 million from them, and $134 million from us, is a disgraceful misrepresentation of the overall payroll proportions between the two groups.




One more KEY thing going on here is that everybody is being asked to IGNORE the big elephant in the room...PENSIONS.
The reason for this is that the pilots' 'B' fund backs up a billion bucks or more, in pension benefits for them, while we are going to end up completely dependent upon the PBGC--which has already warned that they cannot cover a pension termination of our size.
Too, with Congress and the public at large in no mood to "bail out" our pension, we may well be hung out to dry.

Now normally, you might think the pilots (and every other work group) would move to protect their retirements as an integral part of these concessionary negotiations.
But again, ALPA is pulling a fast one.
Both they (and United) would have us pretend this is not a problem, or that it's a problem we all "share," and should address AFTER we settle the basic package of concessions...but this method is really to the flight attendants' DISadvantage--to the tune of tens of millions of dollars--as is the fact that ALPA (as usual) has secured its deal first, and in secret.
That's because it allows United to calculate its concessions without including pensions at all, and it's in the area of pensions alone where flight attendants will end up losing even more actual money than the pilots have just given up, should the PBGC itself fail to cover us, or should Congress pass 'special legislation' forbidding United to go there.

Now, we are in the worst possible position.

Ancient history:
Way back in 1985, when ALPA asked us to join in their strike for them, all kinds of promises were made, chiefly that they would NEVER sign any deal which precluded them from honoring our strike, if we ever had one. Then, they turned around and settled (again, in secret) their "ESOP" contract, just a few years later--this time, with a 'no-strike clause,' if the flight attendants ever went on strike.
It remains the biggest "f@*k you" from one union to another in the history of United Airlines.

 

[aafsc]

As usual, an implied "we're not responsible."

The only thing exaggerated about the summer of 2k was your action. But I guess it's okay for you Gods and not the rest of us.

Your (group's) predictable hypocrisy.

[post="228647"][/post]​

At the end of the 1990s most of the legacies were very profitable, times were good. UA, with most of the others, was flush with cash. At UA you had the snapback as negotiated with the ESOP. Then you had the pilots' demands for the huge industry leading compensation and when UA management refused this demand you had the summer of 2000. Then UA management (Goodwin) caved and gave into the pilots demands. Then 9/11 and all of the other problems hit. The snap back was cash going out the door; the summer of 2000 was cash going out the door ($750 million); Goodwins capitulation was cash going out the door; and finally 9/11 and the other problems was more cash going out the door. This tremendous amount of cash bleed caused UA to file. Looks like Dubinsky squeezed the gooses' throat a little to hard and now it is in a coma and could very well die.
There are some differences between the pilots' summer of 2000 and the flight attendants' proposed CHAOS. In the summer of 2000 the pilots were never in danger of losing their six figure income as to where today the salary of the flight attendants, who only make an average salary, will fall to obscenly low levels. Also, the pilots plans in 2000 were unannounced to the public as to where the AFA is giving the public ample warning of what could happen. It is amazing the change in attitude of the pilots. In 2000, it was "aggressive negotiating" (as evidenced by Dubinsky's statement) bolstered by the fact that UA was cash rich. Now that UA could possilbly liquidate, the pilots are giving UA whatever it wants to keep it alive long enough to cut the pay of the non-pilots and outsource everything they can ( see ALPA national President Duane Woerth's testimony before Conress on outsourcing). When the other employees' pay is decimated to substandard or their job is outsourced, then if UA becomes profitable again they could then recoup their loses and ask for more on top of that. This is the pilots' plan and it is going on at USAir. You have pilots, and one in particular, that are taking the side of management and telling the other U employees that they have to work for crap after 25 years of employment with U and if they don't like it then just quit. It must terrify them that the "pissants" of the airline can end their careers. I do not blame the pilots for getting what they could get but they can't blame the other employees for trying to keep and average salary. The fact is that if a major airline pilot loses his job now, his high salary and seniority position are gone forever; as where a mechanic, ramper, agent, or flight attendant can easily go somewhere else and make the same or more than they currently are or will be making at the airlines.

 

[ualdriver]

Fly, your post is an absolute joke. If you really think that the AFA has somehow given up more than ALPA, or that it has given up more than its "fair share" then you really need your head examined. During the first round of cuts, ALPA made up 25% of the payroll yet gave up over 40% of the required cuts. The PBGC will cover the VAST MAJORITY of the AFA's pension obligations. ALPA guys/gals will lose their shirt. You know why the AFA is so angry about the latest round of cuts? Because this time, they actually have to give their fair share, and that's very difficult for that group to deal with.

"There are some differences between the pilots' summer of 2000 and the flight attendants' proposed CHAOS. In the summer of 2000 the pilots were never in danger of losing their six figure income as to where today the salary of the flight attendants, who only make an average salary, will fall to obscenly low levels. Also, the pilots plans in 2000 were unannounced to the public as to where the AFA is giving the public ample warning of what could happen."

Are you kidding me aafc? So the much exaggerated summer of 2000 was not OK because we didn't "give notice", but a threatened CHAOS job action that will more than likely lead to the liquidation of United Airlines is OK? You're kidding, right? FYI, after this next round of paycuts, you can take pleasure in the fact that I will be one of the LOWEST PAID 737 Captains in the entire industry (bottom 10% from the numbers I've seen). When UAL flight attendants are one of the LOWEST PAID flight attendants in the entire industry, then I'll start to feel bad. And before every UA flight attendant starts crying poor mouse, make sure you post all your competitors pay rates (say 10 year pay rates) to back up your claim.