New 18% Paycut For Pilots
- Thread starter luvthe9
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U
UAL_TECH
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ualdriver said:
GROUP, HEAD COUNT, ALLOCATION, COST PER MEMBER, % OF COST
PILOTS, 6491, 191,152,000.00, 29,448.78, 26.4%
MECH, 6880, 101,248,000.00, 14,716.28, 14%
ALPA reported a choice of 8% (plus fringe) or a flat 18% pay ‘ADJUSTMENT’.
Using this ‘theory’, these are the calculations I come up with :
GROUP, % OF CONCESSION
PILOTS, 18%
AMFA M&R, 24%
PILOTS
ANNUAL PAY (AVG), $163,600
% Concession, 0.18
ANNUAL CUTS, $29,448
TOTAL PAY (AVG AFTER CONCESSIONS), $134,152
AMFA M&R
ANNUAL PAY (AVG), $61,000
% Concession, 0.24
ANNUAL CUTS, $14,640
TOTAL PAY (AVG AFTER CONCESSIONS), $46,360
(kcabpilot, I like the 26% calculation much better than mine, but I don’t see it.)
Admittedly, ALPA is taking a hell of a beating on the ‘A Plan’ termination but still has a 9% ‘B Plan’ that is superior to the 4% DC plan being offered to the AMFA M&R here at ‘The Lazy U’.
It may be that the ALPA counsel has proposed concessions that are proportionate across all groups but I’m not seeing it here. $22.29 an hour in the bay area will not allow a person to qualify for a trailer in Antioch.
So, you can ‘accuse’ me of ‘burning down the house’, but what the hell, I’ve had a lot of help with fuel and all I have left are matches.
Smoke em if U got em……… 😛
B) UT
UAL_TECH said:
Well you know, it was just 'spin' - I was using 6000 instead of 6880 because I'm too lazy to do the research. For me it won't matter and you don't need to burn down the house as UAL management will do it for you. Here's an example of how stupid they really are. First they get their mechanics down to the lowest wage in the industry and then they lay them all off.
Somewhere there's a beancounter who has it all figgured out.
About the B plan. Again, plenty of assumptions being made with no facts. Many years ago, a very, very wise person in our union REDUCED our A-Plan (pension) and placed that amount in our B plan. During the ESOP, our B plan was 1% of our gross earnings. Only recently has the % come up. Every union on the property could have chosen to do the same thing but didn't for one reason or another. We're still getting disproportionately hammered by the pension calculation, no matter how you look at it. The B plan is a pittance compared to what the A plan would have paid out.
U
UAL_TECH
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ualdriver said:
Thanks for clearing this up??? :blink:
(Why reply?)
B) UT
Why not? I'm on a forum. And if I don't set it straight now, about 10 posts from now someone (like Fly) will be posting how all the pilots have this super-secret multi-million dollar B fund stashed away while everyone else gets nothing.
767jetz
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Fly said:
Because it is not anyone else's business what ALPA is negotiating. ALPA represents the pilots. Every other labor group has their own representatives to negotiate for them. We'll take our cuts. You will take yours. When it''s all over everything will be public knowledge.
JEEEZZZZ! You're like the little kid in school who looks over everybody's shoulder instead of keeping your eyes on your own work. 😛
ALPA does not negotiate in public because it serves us no purpose to do so. Additionally, it prevents the flurry of rumors that inevitably FLY around when bits and pieces leak out.
By the way... I don't see daily updates on the internet or in the news media about the state of AFA's negotiations, or AMFA, or CWA, etc. etc. etc. Why are YOU so "super secret?" :down:
Now... on to the next conspiracy... 🙄
ualdriver said:
read these you arrogant prick
United defends planned pay cuts
Compensation 'would remain competitive,' air carrier tells court
By David Kesmodel | Rocky Mountain News | 12.16.2004
United Airlines, which is trying to persuade its workers to grant further pay and benefit cuts, said in a bankruptcy-court filing that its proposed new compensation levels still would surpass or rank close to those at other U.S. carriers.
As painful as concessions would be, compensation "as a whole would remain competitive," the airline said.
Average wages would exceed those at the 13 other largest U.S. airlines for utility, ramp and customer-service employees and would be close to the average wages for pilots, flight attendants and mechanics at the same carriers, United said.
Further, it said, most union workers would keep enjoying benefit premiums above 20 percent.
Flight attendants would face the largest wage gap compared with peers at major and midsize carriers, with average pay 7.5 percent less.
United said it needs labor concessions worth $725 million a year by mid-January or it risks breaching terms of its bankruptcy loans, which could ground the Chicago- based carrier. It also says it likely will terminate its pension plans to save more than $600 million a year.
"United must reduce its labor costs expeditiously," the airline said. "Under current projections, the company's cash balance will sink to precarious levels during the historically lean winter months, putting the entire operation at risk."
United must maintain at least $750 million in unrestricted cash under terms of its bankruptcy loans. Its lenders won't "tolerate inaction in the face of continued losses that imperil United's viability," it said.
Joe Tiberi, spokesman for the International Association of Machinists, United's largest union, declined to comment on any aspect of the carrier's filing. The union represents utility, ramp and public-contact workers, among others.
"We'll respond through the legal process but not through the media," said Sara Dela Cruz, spokeswoman for the Association of Flight Attendants, United's second-largest union.
The pilots union has reached a tentative pact with United on cost cuts. No details have been released. United earlier said it required $191 million in annual cuts from pilots.
The carrier has been negotiating with all its unions in hopes of reaching agreements soon after New Year's Day.
United made the voluminous filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Chicago. It was submitted in support of its request that the court void its labor contracts and let it impose terms if negotiations fail.
United, the operating unit of UAL Corp., is the biggest carrier in Denver and the second-biggest U.S. carrier after AMR Corp.'s American.
The airline is struggling to climb out of bankruptcy after two years in court protection and after garnering $2.5 billion in annual labor concessions last year.
It said it projects an operating loss of $725 million next year if it fails to gain further concessions. In its bid for federal loan guarantees, which was rejected in June, it forecast a $1.27 billion operating profit. Operating results exclude interest payments and special gains or charges.
United has consistently failed to meet its executives' financial projections in recent years. It hasn't made a net profit since the Clinton administration.
In its filing, United emphasized that its performance suffered this year from higher-than-expected fuel prices. It also has been hurt by widespread low fares as it grapples with fierce competition from discounters.
United, which has cut fares on some routes in which it battles discounters, said it competes with low-fare airlines on more than 80 percent of its domestic routes, double the figure from a decade ago.
The company not only has been outperformed financially by most low-fare carriers, but it also has been outshone by most major airlines.
American, despite its own financial problems, posted a $211 million operating profit for the first nine months of 2004, while United posted a $284 million operating loss
United stands at precipice
By Kelly Yamanouchi | Denver Post | 12.6.2004
United Airlines disclosed for the first time this week how dangerously close it is to failure if it cannot cut costs, and it said that employees, travelers and cities would suffer greatly if it failed.
"The consequences of a failure to reorganize United would be devastating," said a bankruptcy court filing by United parent UAL Corp. "With the difficult circumstances facing other carriers, most of United's employees would be unable to find other jobs in the airline industry, especially not at other legacy (major) carriers."
United's filing was in support of its motion to void its existing labor contracts.
Industry analyst Darryl Jenkins, a visiting professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida, said the potential fallout from a United failure is not reason enough to rule in favor of the motion.
"The reason for the court to act is to keep as much value to the assets as possible," he said.
United said a failure would mean unsecured creditors would receive virtually nothing on their claims, suppliers and vendors would lose a major customer and "airports would be left with empty gates." Many cities would lose all flight service, and "gone would be United's indispensable role in maintaining the competitiveness of the U.S. airline industry."
Jenkins called United's gloomy self-prognosis "all true."
"The people would not find other jobs in the airline industry," he said. "The stockholders are all wiped out anyway."
He said of United's eleventh-hour efforts to reach new contracts with its labor unions, "Somehow or another you're going to have to find a way to do this and maintain the peace. These are very, very dangerous times."
United didn't say what effect a shutdown would have on Denver International Airport, but one top city official has said he believes the loss of the carrier would be an "economic-development catastrophe." United employs more than 6,000 people from its Denver hub.
The company's motion to terminate its labor contracts effectively puts time pressure on negotiations for cost-cutting agreements that would avoid a judge deciding the matter after a January hearing.
United forecast it will sustain an $804 million operating loss this year. It expects a $725 million operating loss for 2005.
United was required to update lenders this week on progress in achieving cost reductions. The company has reached a tentative agreement with the negotiating committee of its pilots union but is still in talks with other unions on cost cuts.
United received a waiver of a requirement in agreements with its "debtor-in-possession" lenders to meet certain financial requirements through December on the understanding that it would begin reducing labor and other costs by mid-January 2005, the filing showed.
"Failure to secure the proposed cost reductions would jeopardize United's future," the carrier said. Its lenders would be able to foreclose on their collateral, which is "virtually all of the company's assets" not encumbered prior to bankruptcy.
Without the labor-cost reductions taking effect by Jan. 15, United said it may be unable to renegotiate covenants with lenders.
Meanwhile, United must maintain a cash balance of at least $750 million, according to the agreement with lenders. But the company expects its cash balance to fall below $900 million for most of the first half of next year and below the $750 million floor in early May. The January and February levels are too close to the minimum in the volatile airline industry, the company said.
That puts the airline at risk of "potentially calamitous effects."
United said that if it does not terminate its pension plans or secure equivalent savings and reduce labor costs by $725 million per year, it will "burn through more than $1 billion in cash each year until it runs out of cash."
United has sought to get the consent of its unions to terminate its pension plans.
The company said it also proposes a wage cut of 9 percent to 12 percent for unionized workers, 4 percent of which would be temporary.
Wages for union employees at United are 2 percent to 19 percent higher than average wages for workers in all other airline jobs with the exception of flight attendants, whose pay is 1.8 percent below average, according to the filing.
Members of the Association of Flight Attendants at United are voting on a strike in the event their labor contract is voided, but according to United, the Railway Labor Act and bankruptcy code would not allow employees to strike.
United said in the filing it will eliminate at least 300 salaried and management jobs. It started a voluntary separation program this month, offering extended travel benefits in exchange for employees' departure.
The company argued that many others besides workers have made sacrifices in its attempts at restructuring.
It said its bankruptcy "will wipe billions of dollars of debt" off its books, leaving its unsecured creditors with claims "worth pennies on the dollar for the original debt owed to them by United."
note where we stand in relation to our peer , here and at other carriers... and by peers here i mean human being who have to eat daily
oh yeah merry xmas
spacewaitress
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couldn't have said it better myself.Blues` said:
Blues, you are an embarassement and represent what is wrong with our airline. Ditto for spacewaitress. Instead of posting FACTS (like hourly flight attendant rates like I asked for previously), you both resort to name calling and absolutely moronic statements. And the worst of it is that you guys "get off" on each other's name calling. It's like we're on the playground instead of a forum with other adults.
"Flight attendants would face the largest wage gap compared with peers at major and midsize carriers, with average pay 7.5 percent less."
"Wages for union employees at United are 2 percent to 19 percent higher than average wages for workers in all other airline jobs with the exception of flight attendants, whose pay is 1.8 percent below average, according to the filing."
First of all, since you're both probably unable to process original thoughts, you posted two separate statements (opinions) that contradict each other. Which is it 1.8% (newspaper numbers) or 7.5% (management numbers)? Oh, I know. It's the 7.5% because that is what looks better.
Second, just doing some rough calculations looking at 7 year captain wages (excluding benefits as they are difficult to quantify), I'm showing that UAL pilots are currently about 9% behind their peers' and after this next round, they'll be around 22% behind their peers' average. So again, I ask, instead of cutting and pasting (as my 3 year old can do that), how about posting some verifiable FACTS that show how you arrive at YOUR numbers? I mean, c'mon now. You aren't going to trust management's numbers, are you? Don't you know they're all wrong? Just read some of your peers posts.
"Flight attendants would face the largest wage gap compared with peers at major and midsize carriers, with average pay 7.5 percent less."
"Wages for union employees at United are 2 percent to 19 percent higher than average wages for workers in all other airline jobs with the exception of flight attendants, whose pay is 1.8 percent below average, according to the filing."
First of all, since you're both probably unable to process original thoughts, you posted two separate statements (opinions) that contradict each other. Which is it 1.8% (newspaper numbers) or 7.5% (management numbers)? Oh, I know. It's the 7.5% because that is what looks better.
Second, just doing some rough calculations looking at 7 year captain wages (excluding benefits as they are difficult to quantify), I'm showing that UAL pilots are currently about 9% behind their peers' and after this next round, they'll be around 22% behind their peers' average. So again, I ask, instead of cutting and pasting (as my 3 year old can do that), how about posting some verifiable FACTS that show how you arrive at YOUR numbers? I mean, c'mon now. You aren't going to trust management's numbers, are you? Don't you know they're all wrong? Just read some of your peers posts.
Anyone remember how much UAL was losing just before the ESOP? They were crying poor. Closing kitchens. All of a sudden we have an ESOP and the money is flowing so fast you couldn't stop it. I just wonder how real all the numbers are. I have to agree with the other AMT's on the forum. LET IT BURN.
ualdriver said:
actually if you read the posts the 1.8 figure is current pay and the 7.5% figure is projected with the term sheet, as to whats wrong with the airline is you and others like you, i was walking the picket line in 1985 for your cause in the belief it would forestall the tide of anti union management of the time, and what were you doing at the time? probably doing a circle jerk at the frat house...unless of course you were hired right about then?? which makes you a scab anyway
process that... and get a thesaurus, moronic looses it's bite when you use it too often , try cretin ... look in the mirror you cretin
Never joined a fraternity. Would never cross an ALPA endorsed picket line.
But now I understand. You're bitter. You're angry. And you're been a flight attendant for a very long time. Well, instead of lashing out at me and all those nasty, evil pilots out there, perhaps you should retire? Perhaps even a career change is in order? I can't imagine being as vitriolic as you seem to be, but if I ever get that bad, I hope I have enough sense to move on with my life rather than lash out at my peers. Just a thought........
Sorry if I can't come up with better words than "moronic." I guess I'm not used to calling people names when I disagree with them. But I'll be ready to "make nice" with you and Fly and spacewaitress when you're done with the tantrums. Just let me know when.
But now I understand. You're bitter. You're angry. And you're been a flight attendant for a very long time. Well, instead of lashing out at me and all those nasty, evil pilots out there, perhaps you should retire? Perhaps even a career change is in order? I can't imagine being as vitriolic as you seem to be, but if I ever get that bad, I hope I have enough sense to move on with my life rather than lash out at my peers. Just a thought........
Sorry if I can't come up with better words than "moronic." I guess I'm not used to calling people names when I disagree with them. But I'll be ready to "make nice" with you and Fly and spacewaitress when you're done with the tantrums. Just let me know when.
