New 18% Paycut For Pilots

[spacewaitress]

Wow, a B747-400 captain flying trans-pacific making less (per hour) than a Southwest captain flying a 737 from PHX to TUS. Very sad indeed.

[post="199516"][/post]​

How is it that SW can make money year over year when they pay their people better (rhetorical)?

Why is is all this has to ride on labor's back. Because UAL is mismanaged, always has been. Tilton said as much.

 

[TechBoy]

Wow, a B747-400 captain flying trans-pacific making less (per hour) than a Southwest captain flying a 737 from PHX to TUS. Very sad indeed.

[post="199516"][/post]​

Why is that sad? Is it more difficult to fly a 747 than a 737? With autopilots and rest breaks, I would think that it is easier to do a trans-pac than to puddle jump all day. I don't wish lower pay on anyone, but I think that the idea that a pilot should be paid more just because a plane is bigger is something that will have to go if the legacy airlines want to have a future.

Remember that those WN captains went through many years of below average pay in order to build a strong business. Now they are reaping the rewards. What is wrong with that?

 

[Borescope]

it more difficult to fly a 747 than a 737?

[post="199529"][/post]​

What makes it more difficult? Both have autopilots, auto throttles, FMC's, GPS, etc. Although WN doesn't use a lot of this technology so as to make all their aircraft common i.e. like the 732. ALPA negoiated pay rates based on the fact that the bigger aircraft produced more revenue which meant the pilots should share some of that. I would be willing to bet you that if the pay was the same on all aircraft that the pilots flying those all night flights across the pond would opt to fly routes like DEN-ORD in the day on a 737. The long haul would become junior.

 

[darkclouds]

Why is that sad? Is it more difficult to fly a 747 than a 737? With autopilots and rest breaks, I would think that it is easier to do a trans-pac than to puddle jump all day. I don't wish lower pay on anyone, but I think that the idea that a pilot should be paid more just because a plane is bigger is something that will have to go if the legacy airlines want to have a future.

Remember that those WN captains went through many years of below average pay in order to build a strong business. Now they are reaping the rewards. What is wrong with that?

[post="199529"][/post]​

Yeah it is more difficult.

I fly short domestic stuff and the planning and experience required for long haul Pacific flying is greater. If you have a problem it is magnified by your isolation. The time factor, 14 hour flights, allows for small errors in planning to become significant problems. I have a lot of respect for the long haul widebody pilots.

Also the constant time zone changes take a physical toll on many pilots. I've seen many friends health deteriorate much quicker on the long haul stuff.

And what is wrong with being paid for your productivity? Should a guy selling burgers from a cart in the park make the same as the manager of a McDonalds?

Would you expect to pay a dermatologist the same as a brain surgeon? They are both doctors right?

The Capt. of a 747 is responsible for a $200 million dollar airplane, 15-18 flight attendants, and 400 passengers. Sometimes size does matter.

If you increase the responsibility, the compensation should increase.

 

[TechBoy]

Would you expect to pay a dermatologist the same as a brain surgeon? They are both doctors right?

The Capt. of a 747 is responsible for a $200 million dollar airplane, 15-18 flight attendants, and 400 passengers. Sometimes size does matter.

If you increase the responsibility, the compensation should increase.

[post="199542"][/post]​

Assuming that you are right that it is more difficult to fly the long haul, then maybe some pay differential is justified, but hardly the differentials that we have seen in recent pay deals.

I'm not sure that the responsibility is all that much greater. Both pilots have people's lives in their hands. They should be paid appropriately, but not differentially.

Your doctor analogy actually proves my point. The brain surgeon needs much more education and training than an ordinary dermatologist. Brain surgery is more complex, difficult and stressful than dermatology. I don't think that the same can be said of the difference between flying a 747 and 737.

 

[Borescope]

From USAToday 11/10
United, which filed for bankruptcy in December 2002, said in its motion that its "most pressing" task ahead is cutting labor costs. Assuming the company can achieve its targets on that front, the airline will then be "well positioned to intensify its pursuit of exit financing and to commence the formal plan process," it said.


What a joke. They only want the pay cuts. What have they been doing for the last 2 years??.........when they get the pay cuts THEN they will "Commence the formal plan process". They should have been planning the exit from the very beginning. You never get into something without an exit strategy. What a bunch of Losers. :down:

 

[darkclouds]

Assuming that you are right that it is more difficult to fly the long haul, then maybe some pay differential is justified, but hardly the differentials that we have seen in recent pay deals.

I'm not sure that the responsibility is all that much greater. Both pilots have people's lives in their hands. They should be paid appropriately, but not differentially.

Your doctor analogy actually proves my point. The brain surgeon needs much more education and training than an ordinary dermatologist. Brain surgery is more complex, difficult and stressful than dermatology. I don't think that the same can be said of the difference between flying a 747 and 737.

[post="199573"][/post]​

I know Southwest does not require a college degree for employment.

Please name an established carrier in the US that does not require a degree to fly a widebody, because I can't think of one.

Crossing the Pacific or Atlantic in a 2 engine plane, even a commercial jet is a big deal.

I agree flying a plane requires certain basic skills, from a Cessna 152 to a 747.
We don't pay civilian flight instructors more than the check out person at the supermarket. Why should the 747 Captain make more than that? I'm sure the supermarket checker would fly a 747 for $15 an hour.


Most of these Captains have 20+ years at their carriers, thousands of hours experience, and have seen alot.

Would you want to ride on a LAX-Sydney flight with a pimpely 23 year old as your Captain? Would you want to fly with the guy driving the nice car or the one who has to take the bus to the airport? The one who owns his own home or the guy who rents a trailer in the mobile home park?

If I was having brain surgery I want the most experienced and respected guy; so he won't make a mistake and if something goes wrong he's handled it before.

What about commisioned based jobs? Realtors do the same job, but the one selling the million dollar house makes more than the realtor selling the cabin. Is that fair? I don't know, I'm not a real estate agent, but I'm sure the succesful ones feel they earn it.

How about a cab ride from the airport. I pay about $10 and $3 tip for taking me about 5 miles. And sometimes wonder if the guy even has a license. 🙂

The Captain on the 747 probably makes about 1 penny per seat for every 10 miles. Yet, until something goes wrong the guy is over paid. But when it does, and you are praying to God, he is worth his weight in gold.

I guess it all comes down to how you value a profession or position.


Money attracts the best, if its not there the best go elsewhere.

 

[The Gopher]

/index.php?showtopic=12499

In short, pay should be based on the income generating power of the machine. I am willing to bet that a SWA 737 makes about as much or more in 12 hours flying domestically than one of our B744s flying SFO-NRT. Also, their CASM in those 12 hours is much smaller, by nature of their efficient operating practices.

As for the isolation, that WAS true, but our aircraft have Satcom, CPDLC, GPS, and a host of other technologies that allow precise positioning. Our guys aren't dragging out the sextant at 60º North! True, that if an emergency happens, you are alone, but you have 3-4 pilots there to assist. Not to mention the statistical odds of a failure even occuring. You can now fly for 30 years and statistically never have an emergency.

 

[darkclouds]

/index.php?showtopic=12499

In short, pay should be based on the income generating power of the machine. I am willing to bet that a SWA 737 makes about as much or more in 12 hours flying domestically than one of our B744s flying SFO-NRT. Also, their CASM in those 12 hours is much smaller, by nature of their efficient operating practices.

As for the isolation, that WAS true, but our aircraft have Satcom, CPDLC, GPS, and a host of other technologies that allow precise positioning. Our guys aren't dragging out the sextant at 60º North! True, that if an emergency happens, you are alone, but you have 3-4 pilots there to assist. Not to mention the statistical odds of a failure even occuring. You can now fly for 30 years and statistically never have an emergency.

[post="199650"][/post]​

I'll take that bet. Why do you think UA is increasing international flying? Because that is where the yields are.

Before 9/11 they used to say the cargo on a 747 paid the bills and the passenger revenue was just gravy. I recall hearing of a million in revenue on some legs. I know times have change but the international fares are still holding up well.

I did some calculations a few quarters ago with regard to SWA's profit. I think they had a 40 million dollar quarter. I divided the 40 million by the number of flights over a 90 day period, and they had something like a $150 dollar profit per flight. Just shows what a sick industry it is. Although UA is losing money bigtime, I'm sure the longhaul is making some change.

Let's look at the income generated.

A SWA 737, these are my guessitimates.. 150 seats $90 one way X 12 = $162,000

A UA 747 340 seats, 72 business class alone...ave. fare $1500? = $510,000

Throw in freight..?? I dunno take out the expenses and the 747 still seems like a money maker. I'm sure there are guys that have accurate numbers but I don't think short hops makes lots of money...they make money by volume and great cost control.

I do realize technology has come along way in making long haul navigation and communication easier. But it won't fix a windbust, or get you around bad weather or put fuel in the tanks. Not to mention a pressurization problem or a fire. Flying domestic, I have an airport within 20 minutes just about anywhere. You should talk to the crew on the 777 that just received an ALPA award for the longest single engine divert on record. :unsure: You and I know stuff does happen.

Unfortunately, we are hurting are own cause by promoting how statistically safe flying has become. We want to sell seats, so publicity about what a great job a crew did preventing a disaster is mostly kept inside the industry.

I say we put that monkey in the Captains seat once and for all,and prove if he can do it!

 

[mrfish3726]

Borscope says "What makes it more difficult? Both have autopilots, auto throttles, FMC's, GPS, etc. Although WN doesn't use a lot of this technology so as to make all their aircraft common i.e. like the 732."

And don't forget that NW also has HUD for their CATIII landings.

 

[boeing787]

And don't forget FISH soon FRT will be Chapt 7 😛 😛 😛 😛

 

[TechBoy]

borescope, I'm not suggested that pilots aren't skilled workers who should be well paid for their training and experience. What I am suggesting is that there's not much difference in flying different jets on different routes. Long haul may require a little more training and skill due to diversion issues. But the long haul pilots also spend most of their time of autopilot with very few landings and takeoffs, not to mention relief pilots. (Wasn't there a recent event where a 747 pilot had a takeoff issue and it turned out that he had not actually done a takeoff in months?) Sounds like they balance out.

Regardless, the day where the unions could force very high pay for the most senior pilots (thereby making for very high pensions) are over. I would think that the unions should put their energies into maintaining professional salaries for all pilots rather than protecting an anomoly.

 

[767jetz]

When will people drop the "It's on autopilot most of the time so they don't really do much work" concept?

Does an experienced doctor who makes a ton of $, work harder when he prescribes aspirin than a brand new resident? Of course not. He/she doesn't get paid large sums of money (rightly so) for all the prescriptions written. They are paid commesurate to experience and years of practice, and knowing what to do that one time it really counts and someone's life is on the line.

Flying long haul fights does take more experience and expertise. Larger, more complicated systems means more training, more knowledge, more procedures, more planning, and more that can go wrong. It means being responsible for more subordinates and requires more management skills. It means more disruption to circadium rhythms, greater fatigue, longer hours away from home and family. It means greater exposure to gama radiation and greater risk of health issues over time. (One round trip to Asia on a polar route is equal to several chest x-rays!) It also carries more responsibility since the consequence of a bad decision is multiplied by the size of the aircraft and number of passengers. Not to mention the greater profit potential to the company who employs the pilot.

Try to keep in mind that every professional pilot always must possess and maintain the skill to handle a 600 MPH aluminum tube, when all the "gee whizz" stuff stops working. (Just like the doctor who prescibes aspirin and dresses scraped knees all day, still knows how to revive a patient in cardiac arrest.)

An old and true adage: A superior pilot, uses superior judgment, in order to avoid having to demonstrate his superior skill.

As the size of the aircraft increases, so does the responsibilty, required experience, and everything mentioned above, if not the actual physical labor of pushing buttons.

 

[C54Capt]

When will people drop the "It's on autopilot most of the time so they don't really do much work" concept?

An old and true adage: A superior pilot, uses superior judgment, in order to avoid having to demonstrate his superior skill.

As the size of the aircraft increases, so does the responsibilty, required experience, and everything mentioned above, if not the actual physical labor of pushing buttons.

[post="199825"][/post]​

Excellent post 767jetz. Compensation based on pilot skill is largely outdated as many narrow-body pilots have experience flying over the pond in large jets. They are no less qualified than the wide-body pilots, just assigned a more junior role due to the fall-out in the industry. So as imperfect as it is, compensation must be relative to the revenue generation of their aircraft which is an assignment directly associated with their date of hire, not their pilot skills.

 

[North by Northwest]

Let me make this as simple as I can. If pax (including Techboy) and airline (know it all) reporters think SW is the standard for the industry, then perhaps we should all start to fly 757's internatioally to primarily second tier airports. We can turn to NO assigned seating, NO meals, SAME seat pitch as SW. We can focus on JUST the profit. We can give you what you want...cheap fares. But make no mistake about it, you will get cheap in return. Long-haul NYC-Tokyo...one ride on a non-stop SW style flight like that and that will pretty much kill this fantasy that SW is where the public wants to go. The public in the country had better get over the "I wanna fly for CHEAP, but I want service and comfort" like the old days. You get what you pay for. The Bus crowd will ALWAYS perfer SW over a major. Mr. American Public had better be careful what they wish for. Everyone loves a bargin, but sane people also know not to expect a free ride spiced with perks. Sooner or later you will pay...be it No meals (already here), NO leg room (on it's way), cattle car seating, service to ONLY outlying airports. Low cost carriers will only be able to maintain poverty wages for so long...then they will have to pay what SW is paying. And that pay scale resembles ...that dying breed called Legacy carriers. It's just a matter of time before this industry stops attracting the kind of employees it needs to keep it going. Cheap=Cheap, no matter how you dress it up.