Kev3188
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GSO-SDF is the new JFK-LHR...
New AA flights from Miami
- Thread starter FA Mikey
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GSO-SDF is the new JFK-LHR...
eolesen
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Jim, DL slashed their operation at DFW significantly after 9/11 (one of our friends from work was married to a DL mechanic with 20 years who got bumped to ATL). Truth is, they'd been slowly hacking away at it before then. They'd dropped FRA & LGW at various points in the late 90's, and finally gave up on HNL in either 1999 or 2000.
But, the hub didn't officially close until January 2005. My guess is it took that long to renegotiate the lease abandonment with the airport (this was done well before their bankruptcy filing)
DL were still running ~250 flights a day in January, which dropped to ~20 in February.
Later today I'll see if I can map the pulldown and break out what was DL* vs. DL, but the operation was predominantly Delta Connection at the end, just like CVG and MEM.
But, the hub didn't officially close until January 2005. My guess is it took that long to renegotiate the lease abandonment with the airport (this was done well before their bankruptcy filing)
DL were still running ~250 flights a day in January, which dropped to ~20 in February.
Later today I'll see if I can map the pulldown and break out what was DL* vs. DL, but the operation was predominantly Delta Connection at the end, just like CVG and MEM.
Kev3188
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I'll wait to see what you put together, but in the interim, here's a link that may be of interest. It jumps from Dec. of '04 to Feb. of '05, but...
http://www.departedflights.com/DLDFWhub.html
http://www.departedflights.com/DLDFWhub.html
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I don't think DL ever flew DFW-LGW.... but yes FRA went bye-bye with the realignment of the whole European operation that was bought from PA... and I believe that took place closer to the mid-90s than late 90s.
SLC Hawaii was added to replace DFW Hawaii ... not sure when but SLC could be done w/ a domestic 767 and a single crew; DFW on a two man cockpit required an augmented crew.
While you're at, E, show us the growth of AA at MIA over the past 10 years -20 if you would like. AA has made some strategic blunders. MIA has not been one of them.
SLC Hawaii was added to replace DFW Hawaii ... not sure when but SLC could be done w/ a domestic 767 and a single crew; DFW on a two man cockpit required an augmented crew.
While you're at, E, show us the growth of AA at MIA over the past 10 years -20 if you would like. AA has made some strategic blunders. MIA has not been one of them.
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with a jump of just 2 months, it would appear the hub was pulled down after the Christmas/NY holidays.
Also, there were still a number of west coast markets which were served by mainline aircraft based on the data (flight counts not in parentheses). 44 mainline to 110 DCI flights before the hub closed. T
The strategic value of DFW as a hub to DL then and still would be now the flows from the SE and Texas to the west coast which do not entirely work via SLC which is a smaller local market.
Remember also that fuel prices spiked in 2005 and was a major factor in the timing of DL's BK. There were predictions of DL's BK for months before its filing in Sept 05.
And, DL's rapid departure from DFW most certainly helped AA and fed into their mindset that has long been expressed that they would just stick around and other carriers would fail, diminishing the need for AA to fix some of its financial problems which were obviously not fixed in 2003. AA already knew by 2005 that UA was cutting much deeper than what AA got in 2003.
BoeingBoy
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That I can agree with - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the biggest airport tenent would pay the most in absolute terms. However, you previously said the AA had paid billions (note the past tense) to build their new MIA terminal, which was wrong.
Jim
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that is valid, Jim. Goes in the same category as saying that most Americans OWN their homes.
eolesen
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Code:
DL DFW HUB
SkedDate depcity Destinations Flights Mainline Widebody Narrowbody Branded
---------- ---------- ------------ ------- -------- -------- ---------- -------
1978/11/01 DFW 15 48 48 9 39 0
1986/07/17 DFW 56 224 185 33 152 39
1986/12/31 DFW 58 395 333 38 295 62
1987/07/08 DFW 60 293 213 33 180 80
1989/02/02 DFW 71 332 252 41 211 80
1989/08/02 DFW 76 352 272 51 221 80
1990/02/02 DFW 75 349 264 39 225 85
1991/02/06 DFW 81 337 255 40 215 82
1992/02/04 DFW 82 360 271 27 244 89
1992/08/05 DFW 83 370 285 44 241 85
1993/02/02 DFW 82 349 260 33 227 89
1993/11/30 DFW 82 372 246 36 210 126
1994/02/01 DFW 82 384 234 25 209 150
1994/08/15 DFW 80 357 228 29 199 129
1995/01/31 DFW 80 359 230 29 201 129
1995/07/16 DFW 75 357 228 32 196 129
1996/02/08 DFW 65 260 172 32 140 88
1996/08/11 DFW 65 264 176 39 137 88
1997/02/06 DFW 63 248 169 30 139 79
1997/08/07 DFW 61 226 146 19 127 80
1998/02/08 DFW 58 205 129 15 114 76
1998/08/04 DFW 58 207 131 14 117 76
1999/02/02 DFW 59 202 126 15 111 76
1999/08/03 DFW 56 190 126 13 113 64
2000/02/08 DFW 56 186 122 13 109 64
2000/08/08 DFW 59 217 134 14 120 83
2001/02/08 DFW 63 212 121 14 107 91
2001/08/14 DFW 59 200 123 15 108 77
2001/09/29 DFW 59 246 106 18 88 140
2001/10/01 DFW 56 228 88 18 70 140
2002/02/09 DFW 64 236 91 13 78 145
2002/08/13 DFW 66 226 91 15 76 135
2003/02/04 DFW 70 239 86 8 78 153
2003/08/12 DFW 71 359 69 2 67 290
2004/02/10 DFW 73 278 74 4 70 204
2004/08/10 DFW 70 272 66 6 60 206
AA MIA Hub
SkedDate depcity Destinations Flights Mainline Widebody Narrowbody Branded
---------- ---------- ------------ ------- -------- -------- ---------- -------
1986/07/17 MIA 2 7 7 1 6 0
1987/01/03 MIA 3 6 6 1 5 0
1987/07/02 MIA 4 14 14 0 14 0
1989/02/11 MIA 6 19 19 3 16 0
1989/08/08 MIA 13 32 32 12 20 0
1990/01/31 MIA 22 79 34 9 25 45
1990/08/15 MIA 40 111 74 27 47 37
1991/02/09 MIA 50 136 85 35 50 51
1991/08/06 MIA 59 171 117 37 80 54
1992/02/04 MIA 57 173 105 40 65 68
1992/08/04 MIA 71 202 140 41 99 62
1993/02/02 MIA 78 210 131 32 99 79
1993/11/30 MIA 78 245 159 48 111 86
1994/02/01 MIA 78 344 175 56 119 169
1994/08/09 MIA 75 264 176 55 121 88
1995/01/31 MIA 81 299 190 56 134 109
1995/07/14 MIA 85 312 198 55 143 114
1996/02/06 MIA 81 297 175 44 131 122
1996/08/09 MIA 80 289 205 53 152 84
1997/02/05 MIA 81 302 198 55 143 104
1997/08/06 MIA 79 290 200 46 154 90
1998/02/04 MIA 82 300 190 48 142 110
1998/08/04 MIA 84 289 193 45 148 96
1999/02/02 MIA 84 275 188 44 144 87
1999/08/03 MIA 80 279 196 46 150 83
2000/02/09 MIA 81 284 194 48 146 90
2000/08/08 MIA 78 261 193 45 148 68
2001/02/07 MIA 82 263 185 48 137 78
2001/08/14 MIA 78 247 190 45 145 57
2001/10/03 MIA 75 228 165 44 121 63
2002/02/06 MIA 74 201 156 42 114 45
2002/08/13 MIA 75 228 195 41 154 33
2003/02/05 MIA 79 194 157 32 125 37
2003/08/12 MIA 79 224 195 45 150 29
2004/02/10 MIA 83 231 198 50 148 33
2004/08/10 MIA 84 253 211 45 166 42
AA RDU Hub
SkedDate depcity Destinations Flights Mainline Widebody Narrowbody Branded
---------- ---------- ------------ ------- -------- -------- ---------- -------
1986/07/17 RDU 2 4 4 0 4 0
1987/01/03 RDU 3 9 9 0 9 0
1987/07/02 RDU 40 200 118 0 118 82
1989/02/11 RDU 55 186 142 18 124 44
1989/08/08 RDU 58 228 146 15 131 82
1990/01/31 RDU 56 217 126 10 116 91
1990/08/15 RDU 59 195 142 10 132 53
1991/02/09 RDU 58 184 113 7 106 71
1991/08/06 RDU 62 199 134 4 130 65
1992/02/04 RDU 60 149 65 2 63 84
1992/08/04 RDU 63 199 111 3 108 88
1993/02/02 RDU 62 192 98 3 95 94
1993/11/30 RDU 61 211 128 9 119 83
1994/02/01 RDU 61 286 130 9 121 156
1994/08/09 RDU 57 217 106 9 97 111
1995/01/31 RDU 24 63 63 2 61 0
1995/07/14 RDU 5 23 19 2 17 4
1996/02/06 RDU 5 19 16 2 14 3
1996/08/09 RDU 6 21 16 2 14 5
1997/02/05 RDU 6 22 17 2 15 5
1997/08/06 RDU 6 26 19 2 17 7
1998/02/04 RDU 6 23 16 2 14 7
1998/08/04 RDU 7 26 16 2 14 10
1999/02/02 RDU 8 30 16 1 15 14
1999/08/03 RDU 8 29 17 1 16 12
2000/02/09 RDU 7 24 16 2 14 8
2000/08/08 RDU 7 26 16 2 14 10
2001/02/07 RDU 5 19 15 2 13 4
2001/08/14 RDU 6 27 17 1 16 10
2001/10/03 RDU 11 51 17 1 16 34
2002/02/06 RDU 15 68 19 2 17 49
2002/08/13 RDU 14 64 27 1 26 37
2003/02/05 RDU 13 54 20 1 19 34
2003/08/12 RDU 13 63 19 1 18 44
2004/02/10 RDU 13 68 17 1 16 51
2004/08/10 RDU 14 81 17 1 16 64
AA BNA Hub
SkedDate depcity Destinations Flights Mainline Widebody Narrowbody Branded
---------- ---------- ------------ ------- -------- -------- ---------- -------
1978/11/01 BNA 10 18 18 0 18 0
1986/07/17 BNA 35 103 59 0 59 44
1987/01/03 BNA 39 106 76 0 76 30
1987/07/02 BNA 41 125 79 0 79 46
1989/02/11 BNA 58 171 119 1 118 52
1989/08/08 BNA 51 191 95 0 95 96
1990/01/31 BNA 47 165 83 0 83 82
1990/08/15 BNA 50 152 90 0 90 62
1991/02/09 BNA 57 117 63 0 63 54
1991/08/06 BNA 70 233 134 0 134 99
1992/02/04 BNA 68 167 65 0 65 102
1992/08/04 BNA 79 255 134 1 133 121
1993/02/02 BNA 79 260 114 1 113 146
1993/11/30 BNA 73 234 100 0 100 134
1994/02/01 BNA 71 305 103 0 103 202
1994/08/09 BNA 70 237 104 2 102 133
1995/01/31 BNA 64 216 77 1 76 139
1995/07/14 BNA 52 165 48 1 47 117
1996/02/06 BNA 25 84 31 0 31 53
1996/08/09 BNA 9 33 22 0 22 11
1997/02/05 BNA 6 22 19 0 19 3
1997/08/06 BNA 6 23 20 0 20 3
1998/02/04 BNA 6 20 17 0 17 3
1998/08/04 BNA 6 21 18 0 18 3
1999/02/02 BNA 6 20 17 0 17 3
1999/08/03 BNA 6 21 18 0 18 3
2000/02/09 BNA 5 19 19 0 19 0
2000/08/08 BNA 6 20 18 0 18 2
2001/02/07 BNA 6 19 17 0 17 2
2001/08/14 BNA 6 20 17 0 17 3
2001/10/03 BNA 5 16 13 0 13 3
2002/02/06 BNA 8 26 20 0 20 6
2002/08/13 BNA 9 32 17 0 17 15
2003/02/05 BNA 8 33 12 0 12 21
2003/08/12 BNA 8 39 18 0 18 21
2004/02/10 BNA 8 31 15 0 15 16
2004/08/10 BNA 8 37 13 0 13 24Last year, AA's total other rentals and landing fees (not counting airplene rents) was $1.305 billion last year, and Eagle's total other rentals and landing fees was $127 million for a total at AMR of $1.432 billion. Do you have a breakdown of AA's airport expenses at some of its larger hubs and focus cities?
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FWA,
I have seen AA's payments to MIA in the annual report for MIA on their website. Correct me if I am wrong and you look it up, but I believe it was about $200M or more.
Since all US airports, they should publish sources of revenue. I have seen the revenue listed by carrier at a couple of airports.
It isn't unreasonable that MIA accounted for about 15% of AA's total airport and landing fees.
thanks for the info, Eric.
Although the BNA and RDU hub pulldowns don't exactly correlate w/ comparably sized buildups at MIA, there is an obvious growth at MIA that occurred in the mid to late 90s followed by the general pulldown that happened w/ 9/11. Your data doesn't extend to the present but AA has continued to build MIA and the new terminal allows them to do so.
You don't include DL NYC data but DL started growing it in 2005 and forward.
AA and DL both realigned assets as a result of their hub closures... and interestingly, both gave something to the other while taking something from the other. DL's retreat from DFW helped AA but hurt them in NYC. AA's retreat from its SE hubs came as UA was pulling down its MIA operation and blocked any chance that DL or any other carrier could grow in the MIA-Latin America market.
I have seen AA's payments to MIA in the annual report for MIA on their website. Correct me if I am wrong and you look it up, but I believe it was about $200M or more.
Since all US airports, they should publish sources of revenue. I have seen the revenue listed by carrier at a couple of airports.
It isn't unreasonable that MIA accounted for about 15% of AA's total airport and landing fees.
thanks for the info, Eric.
Although the BNA and RDU hub pulldowns don't exactly correlate w/ comparably sized buildups at MIA, there is an obvious growth at MIA that occurred in the mid to late 90s followed by the general pulldown that happened w/ 9/11. Your data doesn't extend to the present but AA has continued to build MIA and the new terminal allows them to do so.
You don't include DL NYC data but DL started growing it in 2005 and forward.
AA and DL both realigned assets as a result of their hub closures... and interestingly, both gave something to the other while taking something from the other. DL's retreat from DFW helped AA but hurt them in NYC. AA's retreat from its SE hubs came as UA was pulling down its MIA operation and blocked any chance that DL or any other carrier could grow in the MIA-Latin America market.
BoeingBoy
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Nope, wrong again...
AA (or DL/UA/US/etc) doesn't own the MIA terminal and have a mortgage to pay off. The airport owns the terminal and leases it out (or portions in the case of terminals shared by more than one tenent. Plus the non-airline tenents pay leases on their space, which goes to the airport to help pay for the terminal. Plus parking lot income, PFC's, etc. In short, AA is leasing the airport. A better example is a person who rents a place to live. They may have to live there a decade or two for their rent to equal the cost of construction, but the landlord is responsible for maintenance/upkeep that whole time which results in slower payback. And the renter can move out any time after the rental agreement expires, leaving the landlord holding the bag if they can't find another tenent.
This is basic stuff, not rocket science. Anyone claiming to be intimately familiar with the industry should know this stuff.
Jim
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where do you possibly read that I said that AA or any airline owns MIA or any other airport?
you argued that AA hasn't PAID for their new terminal which I said was valid - they are PAYING and WILL BE PAYING for decades.
The statement that AA hasn't PAID for its terminal is similar - falls into the same category - of saying that most Americans OWN their home when in reality most Americans are BUYING their homes from the bank.
There is nothing in that statement that says that AA is BUYING MIA or any part of it.
you argued that AA hasn't PAID for their new terminal which I said was valid - they are PAYING and WILL BE PAYING for decades.
The statement that AA hasn't PAID for its terminal is similar - falls into the same category - of saying that most Americans OWN their home when in reality most Americans are BUYING their homes from the bank.
There is nothing in that statement that says that AA is BUYING MIA or any part of it.
BoeingBoy
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Most Americans are buying their home. With borrowed money of course, but if they stay there long enough they own the home.
AA isn't buying the terminal in MIA or any other commercial airport - they're leasing it. So twice you've implied that AA does or will own it's terminal in MIA when in fact they will not. The concept is rather simple, as I said. Just like a renter, not a buyer.
If you don't get the concept of leasing what else don't you get...as you talk about the "facts" you distribute so freely...
Jim
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Jim,
my statement has nothing to do with buying or leasing.
It has to do with the fact that AA is LEASING and BUYING - the present participle - vs, PAID - past indicative form of the verb - and is in the same form as saying that most Americans ARE BUYING - present participle - their home but do not actually OWN - present indicative.
The parallel is one of grammar, not application, Jim.
I didn't say anything about AA or any airline BUYING or ever expecting to OWN an airport or any part of it.
The verb PAY does not imply ownership. Payments can include LEASE payments, which is what airlines PAY.
my statement has nothing to do with buying or leasing.
It has to do with the fact that AA is LEASING and BUYING - the present participle - vs, PAID - past indicative form of the verb - and is in the same form as saying that most Americans ARE BUYING - present participle - their home but do not actually OWN - present indicative.
The parallel is one of grammar, not application, Jim.
I didn't say anything about AA or any airline BUYING or ever expecting to OWN an airport or any part of it.
The verb PAY does not imply ownership. Payments can include LEASE payments, which is what airlines PAY.
BoeingBoy
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Just can't admit that you were wrong, can you...
You originally said paid - past tense
You then said like buying a home - not leasing
You still talk about leasing and buying - not leasing, which doesn't transfer ownership.
And you've started the straw man argument of "an airport" when it's only AA's terminal at MIA.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...but your ego will never admit that...
Jim
You originally said paid - past tense
You then said like buying a home - not leasing
You still talk about leasing and buying - not leasing, which doesn't transfer ownership.
And you've started the straw man argument of "an airport" when it's only AA's terminal at MIA.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...but your ego will never admit that...
Jim
