New Citites

[AA191]

Hey guys, its not just all about the North East, Atlanta and Raleigh. What about the 6th largest city in America, PHX????

 

[330JETSTEW]

1) Proof is that the President of JetBlue Airways shared this story to my recurrent
ground school class, about jetBlue being offered gates and turning them down
in ORD due to xyz (see other post). Unlike most carriers, our management
actually communicates to us directly, so we seldomly rely on domicile chit chat.
(I don't know what you're asking for as proof, but if you think I'm going to find
minutes from our 5 minute recurrent intro, put it on letterhead and have it
notarized 😀 , you're out of your mind)

2) I am not debating as to whether or not AA or UA dominates ORD. I was simply
saying that it is not up to AA or UA as to who get's gate space and who doesn't.
Why don't you go educate yourself on the way that our nation's commercial air
service operates before making foolish statements. Stop embarassing yourself
to pretend you that know what you're talking about when it comes to B6 and
ORD.

**Live, if you give me your e-mail address, I'll make sure you send you a copy of the press release when that day comes on special jetBlue letterhead, JUST FOR YOU!

 

[Flying Titan]

Hey guys, its not just all about the North East, Atlanta and Raleigh. What about the 6th largest city in America, PHX????

AA191 -
It's my understanding that PHX is NOT on jetBlue's radar right now, which is a shame since I travel there from time to time. The biggest reason is the significant low-cost presence of AWA and Southwest.

 

[funguy2]

2) I am not debating as to whether or not AA or UA dominates ORD. I was simply
saying that it is not up to AA or UA as to who get's gate space and who doesn't.
Why don't you go educate yourself on the way that our nation's commercial air
service operates before making foolish statements. Stop embarassing yourself
to pretend you that know what you're talking about when it comes to B6 and
ORD.

**Live, if you give me your e-mail address, I'll make sure you send you a copy of the press release when that day comes on special jetBlue letterhead, JUST FOR YOU!

Well... ORD is run by the City of Chicago Department of Aviation. And we all know that politics never alters anything in Chicago 😉

Keep in mind AA and UA pay lots of money to use probably close to 100 gates between them, not to mention landing fees for hundreds of daily arrivals. Then there is the matter of thousands and thousands of jobs these two companies contribute to the Chicagoland area... I would guess somewhere around 20,000 jobs directly created by virtue of the hubs and crew bases operated by these two companies. Lastly, there is the world-wide nonstop flights that keep Chicago a powerful financial center, and all of the economic benefits that come with airline hubs.

Now, if you think the City of Chicago is going to jeopardize all that "because AA and UA don't control who gets the gates", well that is just naive. I'm not saying that the City of Chicago will purposefully keep jetBlue out of ORD, I just don't think they will go out of their way to help them - the City knows where the big money comes from, and that is AA and UA. ORD will not force UA or AA to give up or move around gates to accomodate jetBlue, and I doubt either airline will volunteer. In they eyes of AA and UA, the City will need to look like they were forced to allow jetBlue into ORD.

jetBlue is plenty aware of these types of things too... I mean, they remember that their hub at JFK exists due to Senator Schummer (sp?) and his JFK exemption slots. And then there was the political play for LGB slots.

BOS is a different story. BOS has had a few different "dominent airlines" over the years, although no airline (or pair of airlines) dominates BOS the way AA/UA dominate ORD. Its much easier for BOS to allow JB in politically than ORD.

If jetBlue was offered two gates at ORD, I am surprised they did not take one... That could have been 10 flights a day on a high-utilization basis, and would have given them an "in" while they fight for the second gate.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

If AA and/or UA try gate-hogging at ORD, the DOJ and the DOT will be down on them like a ton of bricks, especially if it is to the detriment of jetBlue.

If the City of Chicago starts to play this game, the DOT and the FAA will similarly shut down their grants, perhaps new PFC approval and perhaps other punishments.

I mean to say that the behavior that you describe is either against the law and/or counter to the City's grant obligations to the Feds that spend beaucoup $$ at ORD.

 

[RDUSWF]

One of the first cities on the list will be RDU. They were in town in the summer and stated that service will begin as soon as they have the aircraft to do it with. RDU is a better choice then some of those top five because of the large O&D traffic.

**A liitle fact, did you know that RDU has a larger O&D traffic then CLT?

My top five:
RDU
ORD
JAX
BNA
DFW

 

[funguy2]

If AA and/or UA try gate-hogging at ORD, the DOJ and the DOT will be down on them like a ton of bricks, especially if it is to the detriment of jetBlue.

If the City of Chicago starts to play this game, the DOT and the FAA will similarly shut down their grants, perhaps new PFC approval and perhaps other punishments.

I mean to say that the behavior that you describe is either against the law and/or counter to the City's grant obligations to the Feds that spend beaucoup $$ at ORD.

These games are already played all the time... Look at the recent fiasco between Frontier and United at DEN. Frontier basically proved that by reasonable industry measures, UA was hoarding gates at DEN. UA's contract w/ DEN basically said that 3 turns per gate per day warrants permanent use of a gate. This is extremely low gate utilization, particularly if the facility is constrained.

What did Frontier get out of the whole deal? They got a couple extra gates and a deal to build more in the future. UA now has to live w/ 4 turns per gate per day. Where was the DOJ here?

What has the DOJ done? They prevented the DL-CO-NW alliance until the alliance members agreed to give up some gates a key facilities... but note that they did not require this of the individual airlines. They could have all continued to hold the gates if they did not want to be a part of the alliance, even though they were apparently excessive (they don't need them now, right?).

I have heard of a couple airlines having problems obtaining even one gate at ORD. Therefore I am surprised to hear that JB was offered two.

I am not saying in any way shape or form that the City will actively prevent jetBlue service at ORD, what I said was that the city will not assist them period. It seems to me that if JB was offered two gates and opted not to take them, the City did its job. It in no way told JB not to operate there, but rather invited JB into the airport. They just did not make it easy for JB by forcing other airlines to move around.

This contrasts with DFW, for example, which forced other airlines to move around in order to give AirTran four consecutive gates. CO voluntarily moved in with DL, but AWA and Frontier (which were handled on the CO gates) were forced moves so that AirTran could have 4 consecutive gates in Terminal B. One of the newspapers (Dallas Star maybe?) even had a handy map showing where the airlines started and where they ended up.

However, I am certain this move by DFW was not taken lightly by the folks at AMR and DAL.

 

[Diesel8]

Rumour has it, that jetBlue was offered gates at the Int'l terminal. These gates are more expensive, out of the way and I believe, common use.

When UAL was arrears in a ORD, apparently a few gates were offered to jetBlue, but hey, UAL found the money.

Somewhere, I believe, it says that the airport has to offer similar facilities to all carriers, ie price, location and appearance. Cannot remember where I read it, but I think it was about AMR at Love during the Legend deal. Of course, it would make sense, since it would prevent a city from playing "favorite" airline.

ORD is indeed dominated by AMR and UAL, but I got a feeling something will shake loose re. gates for jetBlue.

 

[iflyjetz]

ORD is indeed dominated by AMR and UAL, but I got a feeling something will shake loose re. gates for jetBlue.

You're not familiar with Chicago politics.

 

[LiveInAHotel]

**I'll make sure you send you a copy of the press release when that day comes on special jetBlue letterhead

Just post it here on the jetBlue board of USaviation. Then everyone can see it! I highly doubt that Neelman would turn down an opportunity to fly in and out of ORD. Even if jetBlue gets a gate to fly in and out of ORD, they will be killed by AA and UA just like DL killed them in ATL!

I think MDW is calling jetBlue's name. 😉

 

[Diesel8]

"You're not familiar with Chicago politics."

Probably as much as you, I do live there and have worked out of ORD. Time will tell 😀

 

[AAmech]

Getting gates can be difficult at a lot of airports because the incumbant airlines have usually signed long term leases for them inconjuntion with prommisory notes for airport renovations. The more gates you have the larger the portion of the note you must pay. Obviously no airline is going to be falling over itself to give up space its been paying for no matter how underutilized it is.
I do think if JB goes into Chicago ORD is probably a better fit for them. MDW is already saturated with Low Fare airlines.

 

[AKAAB]

ORD will happen, but with a mix of 320's and 190's...and with a high frequency. Look for it around late Summer/early Fall of 2005.

Until JB has enough airplanes to fully serve ORD, they won't jump into the Chicago market.

 

[robbedagain]

heck why not ask usair to give up a gate slot or two! they'd sure love to do that as they have no idea on what competition is or how to compete airlines such as
JetBlue! BWI is a prime example of how a low cost carrier kill US Air at BWI!

 

[Fubijaakr]

Politics or not, I have to believe that if a carrier the size of UAL or AA downsized in ORD to a significant degree, that would open the door for JBLU or any number of other carriers.

I think its more a matter of scale than anything else. If you want to operate less than 10 flights a day, for example, you're going to have a LOT less pull than if you propose operating 100.

Then, consider what could happen if a MAJOR user of an airport facility suddenly reduces a large amount of service. That kicks the door open for a carrier like JBLU to implement service.

You have to give credit where credit is due: JBLU has demonstrated the kind of flexible management that allows them to pull out of bad markets in favor of more promising ones.