NMB Speaks: We Have an Election! ALPA/USAPA Topic for 2/19-26

[end_of_alpa]

Yet that "flawed" merger policy is what US pilots have voted over and over to accept.....the last time in 97-98 when the full contract was last voted on. Strange that the exact same policy wasn't so "flawed" when the Shuttle pilots didn't get DOH from the same arbitrator....

Jim

I was here Jim...the REASON that the Shuttle pilots got what they got was that Shuttle comprised about 250 guys in a roughly large pilot group (I do not remember our number exactly, but I believe it was somewhere north of 4,500), their AGE was much higher than ours and the career effect was MINIMAL. I looked at this personally and the award actually made sense. The Shuttle guys captured their AGE and attrition and it did not have anything but a MINIMAL effect on the aggregate group. In FACT, I supported their EAL DOH as long as they remained on Shuttle and even ADVOCATED for that...no matter WHAT aircraft was put there. Whether 727 or Airbus or whatever, it made no difference. In short, the logical AND the policy was accepted because...well....it was LOGICAL! Policy without LOGIC will never pass if the MAJORITY don't like it.

Like HERE. Besides, I was original Piedmont like you and you're PISSED because you didn't get YOUR argument approved with Kegal. He saw DOH and I even agreed with him. I agreed with him when I got hired and I told SEVERAL guys so as a new hire on the F/E seat. That sure "bought" me a lot of dinners, I can tell you. NOT! I would have even got "slotted" in front of many guys hired BEFORE me at US Air. I didn't think that was logical becasue we flew the same class of aircraft. I don't have any more "special" flying abilitities then them!

I'm DONE REHASHING THIS....can we MOVE ON NOW??

 

[end_of_alpa]

You (and others) just keep skipping right past Section 1 in your haste to get to Section 22. That's where one can find the language specifying how integrating lists is to be handled in the case of a merger. You'll undoubtedly find Nic there, or at least the process that led to it.......

Jim

Jim, that language is NICE TO KNOW, but ALPA is bound to that.....USAPA will be negotiating the Contract when they assume the CB agent. Everyone "talks" about Nicolau going into effect when USAPA is voted in. That could NOT be furthur from the truth and is not up to you or me. It is up to the Company and USAPA. The royal WE has nothing to do with it. What you or I think has NOTHING to do with it. It has to do with what the Company and USAPA negotiates. PERIOD.

If USAPA gets sued, SO WILL THE COMPANY.

Then we'll find out. The Company is not worried and neither is USAPA.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Seriously: WTF are you babbling about now?

So are you claiming that you were never afforded a vote on a contract that said seniority lists would be merged according to ALPA merger policy if ALPA represented both carriers?

Or are you just one of many whose fundamental principles seem to depend on the situation - the Shuttle pilots absolutely should not get their Eastern DOH but you absolutely should get yours? A very convenient principle - whatever benefits you the most is fair, any other method is flawed.....

Jim

 

[EyeInTheSky]

People don't need to do something "illegal" to be sued and held responsible. Braking contracts is not illegal. However, it could lead to an action for breach of contract or specific performance. Don't confuse criminal law and civil law.

hp_fa,
True. But it's one thing to throw something out and a whole other animal to not use it.

FWIW, the HP pilots brought this on themselves. May they get what's coming to them...which is date of hire. Sounds fair to me.

Later,
Eye

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, that language is NICE TO KNOW, but ALPA is bound to that.....

Did not that lengthy ASAPA update say that "status quo" existed if USAPA is voted in? Is not part of that status quo the existing contracts? Has not a combined list been presented - one which was arrived at in compliance with existing contracts that are valid and enforceable after USAPA gets voted in?

Your theories are interesting, but seem to verge on wishful thinking - from allowing people to vote on a contract who aren't subject to it's provisions all the way to ignoring a settled issue enforceable under existing and valid contracts.

I see a DFR suit on the horizon resulting in USAPA getting spanked. As for the company, all they have to say is "We have a valid combined list - end of discussion" and they're off the hook - no wonder they're not worried.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Did not that lengthy ASAPA update say that "status quo" existed if USAPA is voted in? Is not part of that status quo the existing contracts? Has not a combined list been presented - one which was arrived at in compliance with existing contracts that are valid and enforceable after USAPA gets voted in?

Your theories are interesting, but seem to verge on wishful thinking - from allowing people to vote on a contract who aren't subject to it's provisions all the way to ignoring a settled issue enforceable under existing and valid contracts.

I see a DFR suit on the horizon resulting in USAPA getting spanked. As for the company, all they have to say is "We have a valid combined list - end of discussion" and they're off the hook - no wonder they're not worried.

Jim

All the points you bring out in your posts about merger policy, the fact that this is in all of ALPA's contracts, etc., just make the reasons to get rid of ALPA more evident. If this is what ALPA or any other entity considers fair, then I say get 'em off the property NOW! Just proves that ALPA is staffed by a bunch of idiots if they didn't see this coming when they came up with their "NON" merger policy. What kind of STUPID policy is it that says that everything will be settled in arbitration? That's like saying "we're not going to deal with these issues, we're gonna pass it to someone outside the industry that has never lived it, probably doesn't understand all the implications and let them decide". Just more reasons to ditch ALPA, even if USAPA can't change the past. ALPA is just a bunch of highly compensated clowns. IMHO, of course.

It's my guess that the status quo will prevail until a new contract is agreed upon, just as the transition agreement states. The TA was signed by a representative of the pilots, and just because the group providing it may change, the fact that it was agreed to by the lawful representatives at the time will make it binding. I could be wrong, of course, but I'd put money on it. I don't see how a DFR lawsuit could prevail unless the West folks were not allowed to participate in all aspects of this election. Just because USAPA has fundamental philosophical differences with ALPA won't do it. Why would this be allowed to happen at all by the NMB if they didn't recognize the rights of the pilots to change representation in just such cases?

Seems maybe we've uncovered another ALPA shill?

 

[EastUS]

Or are you just one of many whose fundamental principles seem to depend on the situation - the Shuttle pilots absolutely should not get their Eastern DOH but you absolutely should get yours? A very convenient principle - whatever benefits you the most is fair, any other method is flawed.....

I had an EAL DOH myself. I didn't think it appropriate for me to fret over such as I'd resigned from EAL. My seniority was based upon a PSA DOH, which did seem appropriate since we were subsequently bought up by US. I figured the same should have applied to the shuttle people via their EAL DOH, and subsequent admission into US. They should have gotten their EAL DOH in my opinion. You, on the other hand...evidently felt some "special entitlement" due to being from Piedmont, and sought out preferential slotting and treatment for yourself. You attempted advancement over those with more time on the line, due to "career expectations" and other essentially "I'm special/I want MINE!" notions. You've previously, and long ago posted that, in seeking slotting and preferential advancement for your group, that you had "fought the good fight"....Gimme' a freakin' break! 😉 You clearly fit right in with the "Righteous Position"/I'm SPECIAL!!/I WANT MINE!!!" crowd over at AWA.

My principles aren't based on "whatever benefits you the most", but yours certainly seem to be. They've been test-proven to be such.

 

[prechilill]

All the points you bring out in your posts about merger policy, the fact that this is in all of ALPA's contracts, etc., just make the reasons to get rid of ALPA more evident. If this is what ALPA or any other entity considers fair, then I say get 'em off the property NOW!

ALPA national has no official position on the subject of Nicolau. If they have made any statements regarding NIcolau fairness, please post the reference because nobody has seen any releases.
ALPA does not have any jurisdiction in this merger integration, the respective pilot groups, the company and the arbitration panel do. With the arbitration complete, there is nothing left to discuss.

 

[EastUS]

ALPA national has no official position on the subject of Nicolau. If they have made any statements regarding NIcolau fairness, please post the reference because nobody has seen any releases.
ALPA does not have any jurisdiction in this merger integration, the respective pilot groups, the company and the arbitration panel do. With the arbitration complete, there is nothing left to discuss.

Sigh..Yes Dear..Alpo's blameless...their cloistered little "processes" work wonderfully, and all's well in the world under Alpo :blink: ...which brings us to: "With the arbitration complete, there is nothing left to discuss." You're right. Let's VOTE!!

 

[prechilill]

Sigh..Yes Dear..Alpo's blameless...their cloistered little "processes" work wonderfully, and all's well in the world under Alpo :blink: ...which brings us to: "With the arbitration complete, there is nothing left to discuss." You're right. Let's VOTE!!

You can place blame on whomever you want, East. If you want National in your crosshairs have at it. This Nicolau decision is not about blame, however. It's about a legal process outside of ALPA National (it's called ARBITRATION).

 

[EastUS]

You can place blame on whomever you want, East. If you want National in your crosshairs have at it. This Nicolau decision is not about blame, however. It's about a legal process outside of ALPA National (it's called ARBITRATION).

Works for me. Let's address the issue outside of Alpo Notional..and Alpo istself then

Let's VOTE!! 😉

 

[jtwhat]

I have a question why do west pilots go back and fourth with this same east pilot that have no honor?(they agree to one thing and then change there mind when they feel like it IE:B757, E190, Final and Binding Arbiration). Like they keep saying lets vote and when it is over we can take from there(move on with ALPA or bankrupt the crap out of usapa DFR 1800 AWA Pilots not paying dues and if you think MGT will fire 1800 pilots for not paying a dime to usapa then you must not be to bright), They are use to the Bankrupt part so they should feel right at home.

 

[EastUS]

I have a question why do west pilots go back and fourth with this same east pilot that have no honor

I guess that they've got too much time on their hands...or, some particular agenda to advance that's evidently worth dealing with such lowly personages that have "no honor"

BTW: Whenever I might wish to explore the concept of Honor...I doubt that my first conversational forum of choice would be a group of people intent on on self advancement at the expense of others that have sacrificed greatly, and worked many more years than themselves.

 

[luvthe9]

US Airways CEO is upbeat on progress
By Thomas Olson
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, May 18, 2006


America West Holdings would have declared bankruptcy in 2005 if it hadn't merged with US Airways Group last May, said its CEO at US Airways' annual meeting Wednesday.
"What a difference a year makes," upbeat US Airways chief Doug Parker told shareholders in Charlotte, N.C. The meeting -- which lasted less than 30 minutes, including questions from the floor -- was broadcast over the Internet.

Now, US Airways is out of bankruptcy, and America West is nowhere near it. The merged carrier on May 9 reported a $5 million net profit for the first quarter of 2005, one of only three major airlines to do so.

Over the next 90 days, the airline expects to combine America West's and US Airways' computer systems, including those for accounting and frequent-flier programs. The airline also plans to unite two Web sites into one.


story continues below


The two carriers agreed to merge May 19, 2005, because, said Parker, they had complementary strengths and weaknesses.
US Airways had a strong revenue base with many business travelers, but high overhead from its short-hop routes and high labor rates. America West had low labor costs but lower revenue, due to a limited route network and mostly low-margin leisure travelers.

"We knew if we didn't raise capital, America West would have to file bankruptcy by year-end," Parker said. And US Airways was "near liquidation" in early 2005.

Despite "a good deal of skepticism" from observers, he said, the deal attracted $565 million in equity capital by the time it closed in late September. US Airways began its new life as the nation's fifth-largest airline, with about $2.5 billion in cash, "more than anyone could have possibly conceived," Parker said.

Parker credited the carrier's 35,000 employees, "who refused to give up, when everybody said they should."

More than seven months since being completed, the merger has represented "an amazing turnaround," Parker said. In addition to the quarterly profit and cash cushion, he cited an on-time arrival record that led the industry in the fourth and first quarters.

"But going forward, we still have a lot to do," he said.

US Airways still needs to combine labor contracts and operating systems. Talks with pilots have already begun.

"We are interested in moving forward, not backward," Jack Stephan, head of the US Airways unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, told Parker at yesterday's meeting.

"We want (Parker) to run the most efficient operation he can," said J.R. Baker, head of the pilots-union's America West unit, by telephone. "Then, US Airways can take care of its people, as well as the investors."



Thomas Olson can be reached at tolson@tribweb.com or 412-320-7854.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

ALPA national has no official position on the subject of Nicolau. If they have made any statements regarding NIcolau fairness, please post the reference because nobody has seen any releases.
ALPA does not have any jurisdiction in this merger integration, the respective pilot groups, the company and the arbitration panel do. With the arbitration complete, there is nothing left to discuss.

Only more reasons ALPA needs to go.