Now this is stupid

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DFWCC

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US files bk lowers prices bec of concessions.
UA is next for bk lowers prices also.
Well here come the rest AA DL NW CO they lower prices to compete. All that is accomplished is lower prices.
US and UA are back in the same boat. One may think the consumer might win. But alas, the bk airlines are not gaining psgs bec the big 4 just matched their prices.
They are still weak and after a few yrs go out of business, hence less competition. Prices rise consumer with less choice loses.
I know CO has come back, but that was pre 9/11. We now have 1 major in bk and UA plus ? coming.
I think bk is a way to prolong the pain and get concessions from emp [:(]
 

Busdrvr

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What the industry needs is true reform. Say what you will about U, and UAL. Many pundits feel that a UAL filing could trigger a meltdown of the industry. A law was past to prevent this situation from happening. the ATSB is CLEARLY out of line. But, in the name of Comp, the government allows just about anybody with a few old 9's or guppies and a 23 year old ATP to start up an airline. It's good for vote getting to be able to say you drove down airfares (although it destroyed jobs). think of the airlines in just that past few years that have NEVER, even in the roaring 90's, posted a profit. Think of what they did to the yields in this industry in the process. Air South, Legend, National, Vanguard, West Pac. whats even worse is some of these airlines even get "special" deals from the government. Personally I think there are enough Airlines. If you want to run an airline BUY ONE. Why should you be able to start a new one every few years with a clean balance sheet and nothing but First year employees.
 

Busdrvr

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On 9/4/2002 10:32:35 PM


Sheesh...quit blaming others for your own airline's problems. UAL for years has been setting the standard for management incompetence.
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Which means they'll prob try to start up another airline soon. "Rono Express" Non stop RJ service to New Delhi.
 

Busdrvr

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On 9/4/2002 9:57:52 PM

Busdrvr, you don't make any sense. On the one hand, you say that a bankruptcy filing by UA would produce an industry meltdown.

On the other hand, you decry the existence of new entrant low-fare carriers. Well, if you had more of these new low-fare airlines, UA going belly up wouldn't be as bad, because there would exist the seat capacity and potential growth to replace UA, including the jobs needed to service those seats.
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A BK at UAL will NOT result in a liquidation. What it will do is give UAL a 20% cost advantage over the rest of the industry. Do you not think that will DESTROY AMR, DAL, and NWA? They WILL lower costs to UALs level, ONE way Or ANOTHER. And how would "replacing" UAL with a bunch of "low fare" carriers (with no retirement, relatively low levels of benefits) help the economy? Would 5 "low fare" guppies feeding China Southern at ORD instead of a UAL 777 feeding a UAL 747-400 be "good" for America? Would replacing skilled pilots with $18 an hour GEDs somehow be good for aviation or safety for that matter? These "start-ups" destroy lives. How many of these airlines have "recycled failures" as the CEO? Even Lorenzo tried it again in the 90's. Remember him? he's the one that came in and BKed a non-BK company, all for fun and profit. Nothing like feeding on someone else' retirement fund.
 

Rhino

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Bus has a point. Go to the magazine section on USAviation. com and read the bankruptcy domino article.
 

JS

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Busdrvr, you don't make any sense. On the one hand, you say that a bankruptcy filing by UA would produce an industry meltdown.

On the other hand, you decry the existence of new entrant low-fare carriers. Well, if you had more of these new low-fare airlines, UA going belly up wouldn't be as bad, because there would exist the seat capacity and potential growth to replace UA, including the jobs needed to service those seats.
 

N421LV

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Aug 21, 2002
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These "start-ups" destroy lives. How many of these airlines have "recycled failures" as the CEO?

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Sheesh...quit blaming others for your own airline's problems. UAL for years has been setting the standard for management incompetence.
 

KCFlyer

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Busdriver, while I disagree with most of what you say, I will give you this...UAL won't be liquidated. If only because they have the "luxury" of being one of the first to file. Because while they would emerge with lower costs, there's one thing everybody seems to forget...they also emerge with a sh*tload of debt relief. Sometimes for pennies on the dollar. So what you've got is a bunch of screwed creditors, bondholders, shareholders, etc and lower costs. IMHO, if UAL files, then AA,NWA,DAL, and even SWA will follow suit. After all, why compete while paying 100 cents on the dollar towards your debt when the 800 pound gorilla with a haircut is only paying pennies on the dollar? But one of the "late" followers most likely will hear the public and the bankruptcy courts say "/Enough!" and THEY will have to liquidate.

I feel bad for the airlines out there who are competing and paying their bills and still maintaining low costs. PErsonally, I could care less if my pilot has a pension plan or profit sharing - as long as he or she flies safely. And I don't think a paycheck size has any bearing AT ALL on a pilots ability. I don't care if I'm on an Airbus 380 or a 737-200 when I fly in to catch my transatlantic flight, I just want to get there reasonably on time, and safely. The low fare carriers are doing a pretty good job of that right now. It's a shame that they can't just tell their creditors that we'll pay you ten cents on the dollar for all our outstanding debt.
 

KCFlyer

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Busdriver, I never said that flying was easy. But using your logic, you weren't as good as a pilot when you were flying for some cargo hauler because you weren't paid like a major airline pilot. Did the skills magically appear the day you were accepted at UAL, or are you willing to admit you were a pretty damn good pilot, even when your "paycheck scale" would indicate otherwise.
 

Busdrvr

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On 9/4/2002 10:42:47 PM

PErsonally, I could care less if my pilot has a pension plan or profit sharing - as long as he or she flies safely. And I don't think a paycheck size has any bearing AT ALL on a pilots ability. I don't care if I'm on an Airbus 380 or a 737-200 when I fly in to catch my transatlantic flight, I just want to get there reasonably on time, and safely. The low fare carriers are doing a pretty good job of that right now.
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US Airlines are the safest in the world. We are the safest BECAUSE of the quality of the individuals flying and maintaining the jets. Most "low pay" employees are building time with the HOPE of one day flying for a major. The majors are in effect subsidizing them. It's comical that we don't see pilots and mechs on the boards thinking we're paid too much, just low fare trolls who feel a entitlement to fly from Boston to LA on 30 minutes notice in a $150 million A/C flying at 500 mph, all for $79 each way. and the sad thing is they "expect" the employees to subsidize the activity. there is more to the story. things break and people make mistakes. but do a little research. Look at the gross bufoonery executed by the multitude of airlines that have China or Korea in the name. Try looking at "Gulf Air". be thankful that you have competant professionals at the controls and behind the wrench in the US. Also realize, a professional, in ANY skilled job, is not AND should not be cheap. It's sad that we have so many "no-it-alls" in the US who think they have it figured out. How many doctors die each year because flying is so easy. JFK jr is fish food for that same attitude.
 

Busdrvr

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On 9/4/2002 11:11:37 PM

Busdriver, I never said that flying was easy. But using your logic, you weren't as good as a pilot when you were flying for some cargo hauler because you weren't paid like a major airline pilot. Did the skills magically appear the day you were accepted at UAL, or are you willing to admit you were a pretty damn good pilot, even when your "paycheck scale" would indicate otherwise.
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Re-read my post carefully. My logic says the big payscales at the majors SUBSIDIZES the smaller operations. Therefor a QUALITY individual is willing to work for a salary he normally would not based on his career earnings expectations. If those expectations go down, overtime, lower quality individuals will choose this career. BTW, I flew for your employer prior to UAL.
 

verhalen2003

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Aug 20, 2002
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Busdriver, I agree with your sentiment about the explosion of low fare carriers. At the moment they are nearly doing more harm than good for the consumer... by siphoning revenue away from the network carriers that provide economically essential service to thousands of 2nd/3rd tier cities in the U.S.. If things keep going the way they are, then, sure, we'll have lots of low fare carriers fighting to carry you from LGB to OAK... but then who will get you from DEN to Fargo, or Chicago to Duluth... Amtrak ? And sorry, the low fare carrier cost model will never support Trans-Pacific operations or similar long-haul ops... so either WN will just have to become the United of tomorrow, with similar costs; or there will be only foreign flag carriers to take us overseas. So if this is a war between the network carriers and the low cost point to point guys, then I know whose side I'm on (and I vote with my $$).
 

HI-LOCK

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Aug 30, 2002
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On 9/4/2002 10:32:35 PM

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These "start-ups" destroy lives. How many of these airlines have "recycled failures" as the CEO?

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Sheesh...quit blaming others for your own airline's problems. UAL for years has been setting the standard for management incompetence.
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The government has a long history of propping up the weak to drag down the strong.The problem that the airlines have is excess capacity.If the bankrupt airlines were allowed to go out of business the problem would be corrected automatically.If UAL enters into Chapter 11 it will have a major effect on the wages and benefits of all airline employees.
 

KCFlyer

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On 9/5/2002 12:55:54 AM


Busdriver, I agree with your sentiment about the explosion of low fare carriers. At the moment they are nearly doing more harm than good for the consumer... by siphoning revenue away from the network carriers that provide economically essential service to thousands of 2nd/3rd tier cities in the U.S..

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Who is really providing that service to Fargo and Duluth, UAL, Delta and American, or Skywest, Comair and Eagle?
 
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