One more reason for seniority-based system

USA320Pilot

Veteran
May 18, 2003
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www.usaviation.com
The email listed below is written by a United A320 pilot, which I believe it represents the feelings of all legacy airline pilots and is germane to the US Airways/AWA pilot dispute regarding the seniority integration.

Regards,

USA320Pilot
___________________________________________________________

An Open letter from a pilot to Glen Tilton (CEO United Air Lines):

Recently a lot has been said and written in the press concerning pilots' salaries and compensation. We have been told about how much it will cost our company, our job has been compared to others, and various subtle and not so subtle threats and intimidation tactics have been hurled at our group. In light of the current situation, please permit me, a pilot, to give you a small glimpse into my world.

Don't compare my job to other jobs:

. How many boardrooms explode over Long Island Sound?
. How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
. How many trucks cost $82 million dollars?
. How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
. Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his uniform to go to work because they know he'll be gone for a week?
. How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
. How many lawyers spend Christmas alone in a crash pad?
. When your spouse is watching TV and the program is interrupted does he/she momentarily freeze in fear for what they might hear?

There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving.

The Price:

. I pay the price when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the cargo hold.
. I pay the price when a terrorist has a bone to pick.
. I pay the price when weather forecasters err in their assessment of the weather.
. I pay the price when engineers design a fuel pump not quite correctly.

You Speak of the Cost:

. Ask the CEO of ValueJet the cost of a DC-9 buried in the Everglades.
. Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from the runways at Steward and Newark.
. Ask Korean Airlines the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the runway at Guam.
. Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami street.
. Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian mountain.
. And if not for their cool, calm professionalism, what could have been the cost of a UAL B-777 that lost oil pressure over the middle of the Pacific Ocean and limped to Hawaii on a single engine? How much were they worth to you that night? Industry standard or 25% below?

When you try to intimidate me, remember:

. It was I who flew Cobra gunships in the jungles of Vietnam while you worked on your master's degree.
. It is I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before I am catapulted over a cold, dark sea, while you sleep peacefully in your bed.
. It was I who one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, moles from the safety of the nearest airport, praying that I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched Monday Night Football.
. It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated your Christmas tree in 1989.
. It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the deserts of Iraq and brought it to its knees, while you watched it on CNN.
. It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than your backyard, while you mowed yours.
. It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to replenish others sworn to protect you.
. It was I, who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't turn and run, while you watched the flowers blossom in you garden.
. It was I who buried a friend.
. It was I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his dad, so that you may play with you grandchild.

Sir, please don't try to intimidate ME. I am not your enemy, I am your asset, an asset that has experienced and accomplished things few dare to try. Realize this and there are few obstacles we can't overcome.
 
The email listed below is written by a United A320 pilot, which I believe it represents the feelings of all legacy airline pilots and is germane to the US Airways/AWA pilot dispute regarding the seniority integration.

Regards,

USA320Pilot


Yeah...the guy has something called character and can see your antics for what they are...
 
What does the original post have to do with a providing a reason for a seniority based system???
 
What does the original post have to do with a providing a reason for a seniority based system???


It is clear to me, and nails the reasons a pilot with 20 or 30 years deserves his place on any list.

I don't know what is worse, you posting a reply, without any horse in this race..or me posting a reply to you!

Best,

Greeter.
 
It is clear to me, and nails the reasons a pilot with 20 or 30 years deserves his place on any list.
Are we talking "seniority" or "experience"?

You and USA320pilot are saying that when EA went bust, those pilots should have been able to walk onto any other airline's seniority list with their EA DOH (you know, to honor their experience at EA)?

That's certainly one way to do it, but I just want to understand what we are talking about.
 
you do have a seniority based system. But in my humble opinion, your seniority has nothing to do with your date of hire. Hate to say it, but if a three year guy is the bottom pilot at AWA and a 16 year guy is the bottom pilot at USAir, they are the same seniority.
 
[ You and USA320pilot are saying that when EA went bust, those pilots should have been able to walk onto any other airline's seniority list with their EA DOH (you know, to honor their experience at EA)?


No. U did not go "bust." AWA did not go "bust." This has NOTHING to to with EAL.

Greeter.

But in my humble opinion, your seniority has nothing to do with your date of hire.

So tell my if you believe, in your heart, a two month "new hire" probation pilot should go ahead of a pilot in continuous, unbroken employment for 19 years.

Go ahead, give me your "humble" opinion.

Greeter.
 
you do have a seniority based system. But in my humble opinion, your seniority has nothing to do with your date of hire. Hate to say it, but if a three year guy is the bottom pilot at AWA and a 16 year guy is the bottom pilot at USAir, they are the same seniority.

Not when they work for the same company.
 
The email listed below is written by a United A320 pilot, which I believe it represents the feelings of all legacy airline pilots and is germane to the US Airways/AWA pilot dispute regarding the seniority integration.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I don't see where it says anything about DOH and/or ALPA policy, but it is an essay at least several years old, not an original e-mail. I remember reading it in an rEAL newsletter a few years back:

www.silverfalcons.com/rEALWordSum04.pdf

(No, I never worked for Eastern, too young as so many folks are fond of pointing out)
 
Now this thread really tops them all.

Yes, it is a good letter. I remember reading it years ago.

But what on Earth does this have to do with DOH??????? :blink:

Yeah, I get the subtle and sort-of disconnected inference of paying one's dues. But using this letter to prove your point is a stretch at best.

Try to get this through your inflated ego and wrap your brain around it... Every pilot in this industry has paid their dues. Paying dues comes in many different forms, not just the number of years since you successfully made it through the interview process at a troubled airline called USAir. You deserve nothing more than what you had when you got married to each other. And there is not a pilot in this industry who supports the blatant wealth and career reallocation that you and your cohorts are attempting to orchestrate.

A seven year AWA pilot deserves his A320 captain's seat just as much as the 25 year USAir East pilot. A 15 year East Pilot earned nothing more than a furlough for choosing US Air over another employer. An 18 year junior reserve East f/o is not entitled to leap frog over a 15 year AWA 320 captain. You are entitled to nothing but relative position and relative career movement.

There are many East pilots who would have retired as f/o's, never seeing the left seat of any aircraft ever again. Merging with AWA was not going to change that. That is just the reality of choosing to work for USAir. So sorry, but that is the expectation of East guys. So don't disillusion yourself by thinking there is any support for you outside your own circle of misfits.
 
Now this thread really tops them all.

Yes, it is a good letter. I remember reading it years ago.

But what on Earth does this have to do with DOH??????? :blink:

Yeah, I get the subtle and sort-of disconnected inference of paying one's dues. But using this letter to prove your point is a stretch at best.

Try to get this through your inflated ego and wrap your brain around it... Every pilot in this industry has paid their dues. Paying dues comes in many different forms, not just the number of years since you successfully made it through the interview process at a troubled airline called USAir. You deserve nothing more than what you had when you got married to each other. And there is not a pilot in this industry who supports the blatant wealth and career reallocation that you and your cohorts are attempting to orchestrate.

A seven year AWA pilot deserves his A320 captain's seat just as much as the 25 year USAir East pilot. A 15 year East Pilot earned nothing more than a furlough for choosing US Air over another employer. An 18 year junior reserve East f/o is not entitled to leap frog over a 15 year AWA 320 captain. You are entitled to nothing but relative position and relative career movement.

There are many East pilots who would have retired as f/o's, never seeing the left seat of any aircraft ever again. Merging with AWA was not going to change that. That is just the reality of choosing to work for USAir. So sorry, but that is the expectation of East guys. So don't disillusion yourself by thinking there is any support for you outside your own circle of misfits.

And which part of the ALPA merger policy address that YOU are entitled to a windfall?
 
So tell my if you believe, in your heart, a two month "new hire" probation pilot should go ahead of a pilot in continuous, unbroken employment for 19 years.


greeter, that depends. If the relative seniority of the two month new hire was higher than the relative seniority of the 19 year pilot, then yes, the two month pilot should go higher. Does it suck for the 19 year pilot, yes it does. But you have to face that fact that 19 years at U got you the same relative seniority as a two month pilot at AWA.

Having said that, I do agree with the argument about the high number of retirements that would take place at U, and I think the integration method needs to compensate for that. But even then I think you end up with a method that is a long way from DOH.
 

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