pay raise

[High Speed Steel]

I stand corrected and while we are on the subject the tulsa boys I am refering to is Cirri & Hewitt not the members. just the latest of a long line of sellouts.

I edited my last post to make it right.

Before you start pointing fingers and criticizing my elected local leaders you may want to take into consideration you were once staffed here in Tulsa and represented by Local 514. I know that you have since relocated to DFW and gave yourself a $2,432.00 raise. How do I know this you ask? Well you now receive 40 hrs. of pay that you didn't receive in Tulsa because you don't have to be burdened with Christmas Base Closure, also you receive .55x2080 hrs. for line pay. So before you start to spout your mouth about being "sold out" by Tulsa keep in mind your annual earnings are already $2,432.00 ahead of the game B)

 

[Boomer]

Given the last SEC filing; it appears that AMR is actually stating that all ground handling of aircraft will be accomplished by AMRServices under the AMR Eagle Brand.

 

[TWU informer]

Well your right. You and I don't often agree on anything but I'm glad you decided to chime in. I would like you to enlighten me on what the TWU could do differently to cause the company to deviate and regress from their position of working within the rejected TA. However. Before you reply. Keep in mind we're still in mediation, have rejected a TA from within mediation, and are negotiating with a company determined to move forward "with or without us" with its order of new aircraft. Also to date offering no commitment to the TWU of future maintenance to that new narrow body fleet. aapitbull, the dynamics have again shifted, so what say you now?

The dynamics have shifted because the TWU has been caught bluffing in negotiations, and in 29D arbitration has proven our scope language sucks and holds no protection.

I think you and I agree on many aspects of our current demise.

But you were one of the Shallow Hal minded TeAAM TWU drum bangers against AMFA and almost every single item used on the fear mongering campaign aginst AMFA has now come true with TWU representation.

My question of you is this...

...I am willing to admit that changing of Unions and Constitutions alone was not the holy grail answer to our problems. But are you willing to admit that the TWU method of representation is no better?

We can keep on pissing against each other, AMFA vs TWU, AMP vs TWU, Line vs Overhaul, but what the "F" do you think the real solution is here? I humbly scream "Uncle" and ask for your solution instead of more inuendo bitching?

Complaining is easy, but what is the solution? I am all ears!!!!!
Before you answer, let me be clear, I feel like a little worm on a big friggin hook, but have seen this coming for years now!
You on the other hand have done everything within your power to insure my fears become reality!

 

[aapitbull]

Well your right. You and I don't often agree on anything but I'm glad you decided to chime in. I would like you to enlighten me on what the TWU could do differently to cause the company to deviate and regress from their position of working within the rejected TA. However. Before you reply. Keep in mind we're still in mediation, have rejected a TA from within mediation, and are negotiating with a company determined to move forward "with or without us" with its order of new aircraft. Also to date offering no commitment to the TWU of future maintenance to that new narrow body fleet. aapitbull, the dynamics have again shifted, so what say you now?

It is simple hold the line and push for self help file a lawsuit against the nmb for failure to follow their mandate while this will probably fail we have no choice but to embarrass them publicly if you want them to change, start a protest outside their offices in D.C. jam their phone and fax lines with complaints and you will get your release then be prepared not to strike but to chaos AA network until you get a decent offer. and for your personally read some history of the labor movement gains have never come by sitting on your ass and doing nothing

The fact remains the TWU has never been prepared to do what it takes to win in this game. it is why AA loves the little whores.

 

[aapitbull]

Before you start pointing fingers and criticizing my elected local leaders you may want to take into consideration you were once staffed here in Tulsa and represented by Local 514. I know that you have since relocated to DFW and gave yourself a $2,432.00 raise. How do I know this you ask? Well you now receive 40 hrs. of pay that you didn't receive in Tulsa because you don't have to be burdened with Christmas Base Closure, also you receive .55x2080 hrs. for line pay. So before you start to spout your mouth about being "sold out" by Tulsa keep in mind your annual earnings are already $2,432.00 ahead of the game B)

Well as far as the Christmas base closure goes go talk to the TWU the negotiated it into your contract not me and as far as the rest goes listen to the words that you guys like to tell the guys in New York when they complain about the high cost of living in N.Y. just move to tulsa if you don't like it. To you I say move to DFW if you don't like it the transfer list has been open for sometime now.

Please don't even get me started on Elected Leaders, it is a insult to the english language to call this group elected and there is no way anyone should consider them LEADERS!!!!!!!

 

[Frank Szabo]

Before you start pointing fingers and criticizing my elected local leaders you may want to take into consideration you were once staffed here in Tulsa and represented by Local 514. I know that you have since relocated to DFW and gave yourself a $2,432.00 raise. How do I know this you ask? Well you now receive 40 hrs. of pay that you didn't receive in Tulsa because you don't have to be burdened with Christmas Base Closure, also you receive .55x2080 hrs. for line pay. So before you start to spout your mouth about being "sold out" by Tulsa keep in mind your annual earnings are already $2,432.00 ahead of the game B)

Not bad - move to Texas and become "$2432 ahead of the game". Still not quite the same as the $13-$15k+ per year we were talked into giving up on a BS premise based in lies with your darling union's assistance.

Now, tell me something - what kind of a person enjoys being lied to and, without a moment's hesitation, steps up to the plate again asking for more lies and giving their full support to those lying to him/her?

There is a term for it in the DSM - just curious if you're aware of it. It's usually treatable with medication and counseling.

... and don't forget the "LOL" at the end of your answer, should you choose to give one.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well your right. You and I don't often agree on anything but I'm glad you decided to chime in. I would like you to enlighten me on what the TWU could do differently to cause the company to deviate and regress from their position of working within the rejected TA. However. Before you reply. Keep in mind we're still in mediation, have rejected a TA from within mediation, and are negotiating with a company determined to move forward "with or without us" with its order of new aircraft. Also to date offering no commitment to the TWU of future maintenance to that new narrow body fleet. aapitbull, the dynamics have again shifted, so what say you now?

We need to demand to be released. Sure we've been told it wont happen but we need to challenge that. Ask , be denied then challenge it in court. Where does it say that if the NMB determines that no progress can be made, which is why they have decided to not schedule any more meetings, that they can tell the union they need to lower their demands? They are mediators not arbitrators and their own flow chart spells out the process. Thye have walked away so they need to release us, If the President decides to intervene he has that right but at least with a PEB we get the ability to have our case heard, and not just sit back and do what the former President of AirCon tells us to do.

 

[Bob Owens]

Before you start pointing fingers and criticizing my elected local leaders you may want to take into consideration you were once staffed here in Tulsa and represented by Local 514. I know that you have since relocated to DFW and gave yourself a $2,432.00 raise. How do I know this you ask? Well you now receive 40 hrs. of pay that you didn't receive in Tulsa because you don't have to be burdened with Christmas Base Closure, also you receive .55x2080 hrs. for line pay. So before you start to spout your mouth about being "sold out" by Tulsa keep in mind your annual earnings are already $2,432.00 ahead of the game B)

Wrong. Do you or do you not have the option of using one of your vacation weeks for Christmas week? If so then you have the option of either getting paid or taking an extra week off without pay (like Flex vacation except they dont hold on to your own money all year and give it back to you). Do you feel that you should get an additional week off with pay because they close the base over Christmas? If you want to work Christmas week , even Christmas day come on out to the line, you will not be denied. Christmas week is always the first week closed out on the Bid. They have line maintenence in Tulsa, bid it. You claim that by moving to the line and working shifts and weekends and holidays that he increased his pay by $2432 well your numbers are off. First of all in your assumption he worked an additional 40 hours, so that knocks $1310 off your raise, so he only made $1144 more than you. When you factor in the Holidays you guys come out ahead. That's another 40 hours less actaully worked, compared to the line, so he actually works an additional 80 hours for that $2432, whereas if you work the same amount of hours as him you would add $3864 to your annual income. So if he actually worked the same amount of hours at the base as he did at the line he would earn more at the base than he did at the line and be home for the Holidays.

I always thought that the base guys wanted the Christmas Base closure? How about setting up field trips to all the Line Stations to work the week? I'm sure that there would be more than enough guys willing to do a one way CS for the week to facilitate all those who want to work. Of course since its a CS it would be at straight time rates except for Christmas day itself, which would be time and a half.Most of us would love the opportunity to take the week off and be with our families, sorry to hear you would rather be at work, even if it meant losing a weeks pay(we would just have to work 27 hours of OT to make up for it, how many hours of OT was available to you over the year?).

 

[TWU informer]

We need to demand to be released. Sure we've been told it wont happen but we need to challenge that. Ask , be denied then challenge it in court. Where does it say that if the NMB determines that no progress can be made, which is why they have decided to not schedule any more meetings, that they can tell the union they need to lower their demands? They are mediators not arbitrators and their own flow chart spells out the process. Thye have walked away so they need to release us, If the President decides to intervene he has that right but at least with a PEB we get the ability to have our case heard, and not just sit back and do what the former President of AirCon tells us to do.

Demand Release?
Did we even REQUEST release or not?

I have been told that a vote was taken and the majority was against release. Now you say we should "demand" release.
So what the hell is really going on Bob? Besides secrets, cover ups, and failure to inform that is?

Where does it say we should demand something we have not even requested? As usual, I am a confused TWU member.
Are we once again blaming someone else for our own ignorance and weakness?

If what appears in front of us is true, then it is easy to see why the company was not negotiating.

I feel like a little worm on a big friggin hook!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Demand Release?
Did we even REQUEST release or not?

I have been told that a vote was taken and the majority was against release. Now you say we should "demand" release.
So what the hell is really going on Bob? Besides secrets, cover ups, and failure to inform that is?

Where does it say we should demand something we have not even requested? As usual, I am a confused TWU member.
Are we once again blaming someone else for our own ignorance and weakness?

If what appears in front of us is true, then it is easy to see why the company was not negotiating.

I feel like a little worm on a big friggin hook!!!

We asked to be released back in 2009, the company begged to not release us and the NMB said we needed to continue discussions.. We need to ask again. IMO the company will not move unless they are faced with the prospect of self help.

As I've cited before the same committee that reccomended the TA is still in charge. Some of the faces have changed and the numbers have shifted but obviously not enough. Clearly the International was against asking for a release and there was still a majority who felt the same way. Pro company NMB director Larry Gibbons (former President of Union busting firm Aircon) did say that we would not be released if we asked but I dont see where thats his call nor does he have any legal obligation to be truthful to the committee since we are legally just witnesses to the agreement. How can they say that further sessions would not be productive and not follow their own flowchart? Timely resolution is stated as one of the agencies objectives, not holding a gun to the workers heads and tell workers that they have to accept whatever the company offers or they will hold us on ice forever. The NMB should not say that they will not release us because they are concerned that people will book away from the carrier. They should not favor the economic condition of the carrier over that of the workers. The process while not set to a specific timeline does have a defined process, and if the NMB does not feel that continued mediation will produce an agreement, which is why they say they are not scheduling any more sessions, then they are supposed to follow the process, offer binding arbitration and if rejected release the parties to a 30 day cooling off period ( it doesnt even say that a request is needed) followed by release to self help, or the President can extend it 30 more days and send the dispute to a PEB, and if that doesnt work they could always send it to Congress. The chart is pretty clear and its authored by the NMB.

So two years ago the NMB said we need to continue discussions, the company responded to our request to be released and said the request was premature. Since then the company has removed hundreds of millions from the table and the members rejected a TA(normally the parties are released following a rejected TA, as our pilots were in 1997). Now the NMB has cited the lack of progress as a reason to discontinue mediated discussions, and has fixed all the bame on the union despite the fact that the union has repeatedly tried to move towards the company only to have the company respond by being more regressive. In other words every time we move towards them they move further away.

Their offer has gone from a lump sum in 2008 to zero in 2008, zero in 2009, zero in 2010 and zero in 2011. Each offer since 2008 has been regressive. In 2010 the union brought back a company offer, there were no counter proposals, and the membership rejected it. Since then the company has come back with an even more regressive offer.

Your fustration is understood and shared. The only we can can put a stop to this and get an acceptable agreement, not a great agreement or an industry leading agreement, would be to get released. Then the union and the company would be on a level playing field.

 

[eolesen]

Perhaps the reality you refuse to accept is that each offer since 2008 has been regressive because

1) the economy was increasingly worse in 2009, 2010 and 2011 than it was 2008
2) the company's financial position was increasingly worse in 2009, 2010 and 2011 than it was 2008
3) you joined the negotiating committee after the 2008 agreement was reached, therefore anything short of "restore and more" will always be seen as regressive


I've been saying since 2008 or 2009 that with the economy in the toilet, anyone holding out for "restore and more" was overdue for a drug test.

Go ahead and label it as class warfare being waged by greedy CEOs if you must, but I can't think of too many great contracts negotiated during the midst of a recession, much less a depression.

 

[Frank Szabo]

We asked to be released back in 2009, the company begged to not release us and the NMB said we needed to continue discussions.. We need to ask again. IMO the company will not move unless they are faced with the prospect of self help.

As I've cited before the same committee that reccomended the TA is still in charge. Some of the faces have changed and the numbers have shifted but obviously not enough. Clearly the International was against asking for a release and there was still a majority who felt the same way. Pro company NMB director Larry Gibbons (former President of Union busting firm Aircon) did say that we would not be released if we asked but I dont see where thats his call nor does he have any legal obligation to be truthful to the committee since we are legally just witnesses to the agreement. How can they say that further sessions would not be productive and not follow their own flowchart? Timely resolution is stated as one of the agencies objectives, not holding a gun to the workers heads and tell workers that they have to accept whatever the company offers or they will hold us on ice forever. The NMB should not say that they will not release us because they are concerned that people will book away from the carrier. They should not favor the economic condition of the carrier over that of the workers. The process while not set to a specific timeline does have a defined process, and if the NMB does not feel that continued mediation will produce an agreement, which is why they say they are not scheduling any more sessions, then they are supposed to follow the process, offer binding arbitration and if rejected release the parties to a 30 day cooling off period ( it doesnt even say that a request is needed) followed by release to self help, or the President can extend it 30 more days and send the dispute to a PEB, and if that doesnt work they could always send it to Congress. The chart is pretty clear and its authored by the NMB.

So two years ago the NMB said we need to continue discussions, the company responded to our request to be released and said the request was premature. Since then the company has removed hundreds of millions from the table and the members rejected a TA(normally the parties are released following a rejected TA, as our pilots were in 1997). Now the NMB has cited the lack of progress as a reason to discontinue mediated discussions, and has fixed all the bame on the union despite the fact that the union has repeatedly tried to move towards the company only to have the company respond by being more regressive. In other words every time we move towards them they move further away.

Their offer has gone from a lump sum in 2008 to zero in 2008, zero in 2009, zero in 2010 and zero in 2011. Each offer since 2008 has been regressive. In 2010 the union brought back a company offer, there were no counter proposals, and the membership rejected it. Since then the company has come back with an even more regressive offer.

Your fustration is understood and shared. The only we can can put a stop to this and get an acceptable agreement, not a great agreement or an industry leading agreement, would be to get released. Then the union and the company would be on a level playing field.

This "Level Playing Field" you refer to will only happen after the company has its ducks in a row to replace M&R functions ala Northworst Airlines - THEN and then only will we be released and I'd hazard a guess the company still won't deal.

Here's a bottom line - a number of large investment funds presently own the majority of AMR. I find it difficult to believe if there were such a problem with the company these funds would not be laying high pressure and heat on the BOD as their "million-of-shares" holdings would almost guarantee direct access to them, not to mention their ability to remove and replace a non-functional BOD. Everybody is happy, that is, except those who do the work.

We have a problem. Little Jimmy and the company seem to be directing and aiming psy-ops directly at the twu membership in the hopes of convincing us we aren't worth as much as those doing the same jobs at other airlines - the helluva it all is we're paying the friggin' union to do it to us but the company, bless their pointed little (no pun intended) heads, gives us a bargain and screws us for free. What's going on now is nothing more than a continuation of the 2003 corporate lies for no other reason other than "We Can" - the twu is in it for "Other Valuable Considerataion".

Now Bob, you seem like a nice enough fellow, but it's evident to me that were you communicating any information of actual value to the membership, Little Jimmy would have your fuzzy butt on a platter, your head on a pike, and remove you from your president's position as he did once before a few years ago, in a New York second. In short, your "insubordination" would not be tolerated, as much as I'd like to believe otherwise, as would others.

 

[TWU informer]

Perhaps the reality you refuse to accept is that each offer since 2008 has been regressive because

1) the economy was increasingly worse in 2009, 2010 and 2011 than it was 2008
2) the company's financial position was increasingly worse in 2009, 2010 and 2011 than it was 2008
3) you joined the negotiating committee after the 2008 agreement was reached, therefore anything short of "restore and more" will always be seen as regressive


I've been saying since 2008 or 2009 that with the economy in the toilet, anyone holding out for "restore and more" was overdue for a drug test.

Go ahead and label it as class warfare being waged by greedy CEOs if you must, but I can't think of too many great contracts negotiated during the midst of a recession, much less a depression.

What I find interesting is how some individuals think their very existance on the negotiating team is so important that they cower down to TWU threats of removal. Yet the facts are clear that nothing changes regardless of WHO is or is not on the team. And that belief runs simultaneous to a belief that AMT's in the industry cannot be replaced. I call this a fools pedestal of granduer. So unwilling to be humbled and face reality that they could actually destroy the profession themselves, while blaming someone or something else from beginning to end. Even though history shows what happens, the self inflicted granduer always creates a belief that "it will be different" this time, with them in charge. Laughable it wasnt my livelyhood at stake.

 

[Frank Szabo]

I heard a rumor last week that there is a pay plan for management called pay for performance, can anyone back that up as fact?

There's ALWAYS a pay plan for management - that way, the evil money is kept out of the hands of the rabble that might even pay their bills with it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Perhaps the reality you refuse to accept is that each offer since 2008 has been regressive because

1) the economy was increasingly worse in 2009, 2010 and 2011 than it was 2008
2) the company's financial position was increasingly worse in 2009, 2010 and 2011 than it was 2008
3) you joined the negotiating committee after the 2008 agreement was reached, therefore anything short of "restore and more" will always be seen as regressive


I've been saying since 2008 or 2009 that with the economy in the toilet, anyone holding out for "restore and more" was overdue for a drug test.

Go ahead and label it as class warfare being waged by greedy CEOs if you must, but I can't think of too many great contracts negotiated during the midst of a recession, much less a depression.

There was no agreement reached in 2008.
Regressive means its worse than what came before.
At least you admit that the company has been making regressive orders, funny thing is their revenue is at record levels despite the fract that the company as far as employees and aircraft is 30% smaller.

Who said we are looking for a great contract? Guess you didnt read it, even if we got everything we are asking for we would still be at least 30% below what we had in 2003.

If the company and the economy are in such bad shape then you should be advocating a release and let the chips fall where they may. I'm confident that market forces, regardless of the broader economy favor us. Seems that from what I heard Redding said in SFO recently he agrees.

Perhaps the real reason why the economy is in bad shape is because too much wealth is consolidated in too few hands. If we get a raise most of it would go right back into the economy and spur growth. Too much wealth has been removed from the marketplace.