pay raise

[eolesen]

You're right, there wasn't an agreement in 2008. Just a proposal from the company that went nowhere after two years of discussions that you weren't part of.

I'm all for a release from mediation, Bob, and all for letting market forces take over. But I think you're entirely wrong that things are in your favor. The only scenario where you guys might win is in a consensual agreement. In front of a PEB or a judge, I suspect you'll fare poorly. And if it came to self-help, I could see management imposing terms, and taking the hit to see who shows up for work and who hits a picket line. The last airline to bank on that essentially won.

Fortunately for you, the guy you and your friends helped elect as POTUS appears deathly afraid of market forces, and in trying to save his own re-election, is protecting you guys from marching off a cliff.

Hopefully he'll be fired next November and be replaced by someone who won't be afraid to let the free market work.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

Hopefully he'll be fired next November and be replaced by someone who won't be afraid to let the free market work.

😀 😀 😀

 

[kma]

You're right, there wasn't an agreement in 2008. Just a proposal from the company that went nowhere after two years of discussions that you weren't part of.

I'm all for a release from mediation, Bob, and all for letting market forces take over. But I think you're entirely wrong that things are in your favor. The only scenario where you guys might win is in a consensual agreement. In front of a PEB or a judge, I suspect you'll fare poorly. And if it came to self-help, I could see management imposing terms, and taking the hit to see who shows up for work and who hits a picket line. The last airline to bank on that essentially won.

Fortunately for you, the guy you and your friends helped elect as POTUS appears deathly afraid of market forces, and in trying to save his own re-election, is protecting you guys from marching off a cliff.

Hopefully he'll be fired next November and be replaced by someone who won't be afraid to let the free market work.

i agree with eol here. bob is off the mark. past airlines in bk have disembowled maint. there are no viable actions left accept the one that results in the demise of in house maint. some appear to want this. they must be sitting on piles of cash...

 

[Birdman]

i agree with eol here. bob is off the mark. past airlines in bk have disembowled maint. there are no viable actions left accept the one that results in the demise of in house maint. some appear to want this. they must be sitting on piles of cash...

Name one, or even sevaral MRO's that could handle the volume of work AA has.

 

[Buck]

Name one, or even several MRO's that could handle the volume of work AA has.

Piles of cash? I really do not know about that, but could this facility handle the volume of work American Airlines does?

 

[tech2101]

Name one, or even sevaral MRO's that could handle the volume of work AA has.

All of them.

All they need is a signed contract. Do you realize how much unused valuable hangar space is available out there?

Look at Duluth, MN. AAR is having job fairs now with the help of the state of MN.

A hangar could built anywhere before the next check was due. Do not fool yourself.

 

[Bob Owens]

Name one, or even sevaral MRO's that could handle the volume of work AA has.

I agree. If there were places ready to take on our work then why haven't they? I seem to remember us sending work to Delta way back because we had more work than we could handle. Job fairs in Minnesota? Well my guess is anyone with our skillsets willing to go to Minnesota would also be willing to go to Montana or the Dakotas and work in the much more lucrative oil industry.
Several unions are trying to organize those MROs, reports are they are understaffed and have a very high turnover rate. People aren't staying long enough for them to organize.
Redding was reportedly in SFO recently for the opening of the new terminal, where he said they knew that they will have trouble getting pilots and mechanics.

If management thought they could bust the union then there would be no problem getting released. If Obama didn't want us to strike he could simply hit us with a PEB.

Does anybody remember the "white spaces" hysteria back in 2009? Amazing how wrong the company was isn't it? " 1200 more jobs would be gone by 2012" we were told, plus we had our own " experts" backing up everything management said like it was Gospell. "We have to show the 6th floor we are serious about filling those white spaces with 3p work".Those for the most part are the same people who are against pushing for a release.

The reason why we are not getting released is because we are in a good position, and with most of the industry sitting out there with open contracts the NMB doesn't want us to start a trend like we saw in the late 90s where TA after TA would get rejected. After we rejected ours UALrejected theirs, USAIr is next. The head of mediation for the NMB comes from AIRCON, an organization that's primary purpose is to lower wages in this industry. I think he still has the same objectives as head of Mediation. His strategy seems to be to hold workers on ice until they give up hope and just accept whatever the company offers. Look at all the carriers that are in mediation, look at the fact that very few are being released and how long workers are being forced to work under old agreements with no raises despite the fact that most of these carriers have seen dramatic increases in revenues and the industry just placed a record breaking order for new aircraft in excess of $100'Billion over the summer.

 

[strikeforce]

If there were places ready to take on our work then why haven't they? I seem to remember us sending work to Delta way back because we had more work than we could handle.
Several unions are trying to organize those MROs, reports are they are understaffed and have a very high turnover rate. People aren't staying long enough for them to organize.
Redding was reportedly in SFO recently for the opening of the new terminal, where he said they knew that they will have trouble getting pilots and mechanics.

If management thought they could bust the union then there would be no problem getting released. If Obama didn't want us to strike he could simply hit us with a PEB.

The reason why we are not getting released is because we are in a good position, and with most of the industry sitting out there with open contracts the NMB doesn't want us to start a trend like we saw in the late 90s where TA after TA would get rejected. After we rejected ours UALrejected theirs, USAIr is next. The head of mediation for the NMB comes from AIRCON, an organization that's primary purpose is to lower wages in this industry. I think he still has the same objectives as head of Mediation. His strategy seems to be to hold workers on ice until they give up hope and just accept whatever the company offers. Look at all the carriers that are in mediation, look at the fact that very few are being released and how long workers are being forced to work under old agreements with no raises despite the fact that most of these carriers have seen dramatic increases in revenues and the industry just placed a record breaking order for new aircraft in excess of $100'Billion over the summer.

And how long does the union leadership expect it's members to wait to be released???? Why isn't the union leadership proactive in seeking release???

In my opinion, I don't believe the TWU leadership is prepared for a release. I believe this chest beating asking for release is all hype because deep down the TWU doesn't want a release. So, What steps has the union taken to prepare for a strike?? I'm sorry Bob, but our elected leaders are out of touch with the membership. Let's face the music....we hardly get blow by blow information from the TWU regarding negotiations except for some generic sheet of paper showing you guys met with management this day or that day. I guess it's just a miracle WE didn't get released in August's meeting because the TWU leadership is viewed as disorganized at best. So, how can I be assured the TWU leadership will be organized during the 30 day cooling off period, let alone a STRIKE!!

 

[Bob Owens]

All of them.

All they need is a signed contract. Do you realize how much unused valuable hangar space is available out there?

Look at Duluth, MN. AAR is having job fairs now with the help of the state of MN.

A hangar could built anywhere before the next check was due. Do not fool yourself.

Building the hangar is the easy part, finding workers with the right skillets is the hard part. This ain't 2005, despite record unemployment there aren't too many mechanics out there anymore. Management went to the government because I wrote that the industry was hiding the shortage through ot and that if every A&P decided to only provide 40 hours of labor to this industry that it would be a crisis, hundreds if not thousands of aircraft would be grounded. They claimed I was calling for a job action.

 

[paul1]

I agree. If there were places ready to take on our work then why haven't they? I seem to remember us sending work to Delta way back because we had more work than we could handle. Job fairs in Minnesota? Well my guess is anyone with our skillsets willing to go to Minnesota would also be willing to go to Montana or the Dakotas and work in the much more lucrative oil industry.
Several unions are trying to organize those MROs, reports are they are understaffed and have a very high turnover rate. People aren't staying long enough for them to organize.
Redding was reportedly in SFO recently for the opening of the new terminal, where he said they knew that they will have trouble getting pilots and mechanics.

If management thought they could bust the union then there would be no problem getting released. If Obama didn't want us to strike he could simply hit us with a PEB.

The reason why we are not getting released is because we are in a good position, and with most of the industry sitting out there with open contracts the NMB doesn't want us to start a trend like we saw in the late 90s where TA after TA would get rejected. After we rejected ours UALrejected theirs, USAIr is next. The head of mediation for the NMB comes from AIRCON, an organization that's primary purpose is to lower wages in this industry. I think he still has the same objectives as head of Mediation. His strategy seems to be to hold workers on ice until they give up hope and just accept whatever the company offers. Look at all the carriers that are in mediation, look at the fact that very few are being released and how long workers are being forced to work under old agreements with no raises despite the fact that most of these carriers have seen dramatic increases in revenues and the industry just placed a record breaking order for new aircraft in excess of $100'Billion over the summer.

Whens the last time the TWU asked to be released?
Its my understanding from this forum that after jack put you guys on ice. The prez. voted AGAINST asking to be released. This whole thing has become a complete scam. The TWU promised to keep us more informed. My ass there is NOTHING being done or said. Over a year later on rejecting the T/A. and you guys are still pounding sand and blowing smoke up your own asses. If there is this great shortage you keep talking about,why are there not A&P schools opening up left and right, to fill this demand? with UNEMPLOYMENT above 9%

 

[Bob Owens]

Whens the last time the TWU asked to be released?
Its my understanding from this forum that after jack put you guys on ice. The prez. voted AGAINST asking to be released. This whole thing has become a complete scam. The TWU promised to keep us more informed. My ass there is NOTHING being done or said. Over a year later on rejecting the T/A. and you guys are still pounding sand and blowing smoke up your own asses. If there is this great shortage you keep talking about,why are there not A&P schools opening up left and right, to fill this demand? with UNEMPLOYMENT above 9%

Jake Kane did not put us on ice, he said that there was no point in further sessions at this time , according to their flow chart we should be released. I feel we should request to be released others feel we should continue talking, I don't mind talking but I would prefer to do it on a level playing field, with the clock ticking. Some here say we aren't ready, and others that we need to have a full comprehensive plan where we are guaranteed success no mater what the company does, I say the company is even less prepared for a strike than some think we are. If I'm wrong you could end up working for exactly whatever the company feels like they can get away with paying you, which seems to be where we are headed anyway so why not take them on?

Why aren't A&P schools opening up? For the same reason more than half of them closed since 2001, no demand as far as people looking to come into the field.There won't be a demand for A&P schools until a lot of young people are willing to invest in this career, and with starting wages less today than they were when these kids were born not to many are going to be willing to make such an investment. Look around you, odds are most of the guys you see are over 50. They probably came out of A&P school 30 Years ago. Do you think there are hoards of 40, 30 or 20 year old guys out there waiting to jump into an industry that has seen compensation cut by 50%? Do you think any mechanics out there are steering their kids into this industry? Right now the industry is living off OT. Try having everyone in your station not sign the OT list for a month and see how management reacts.

 

[strikeforce]

Whens the last time the TWU asked to be released?
Its my understanding from this forum that after jack put you guys on ice. The prez. voted AGAINST asking to be released. This whole thing has become a complete scam. The TWU promised to keep us more informed. My ass there is NOTHING being done or said. Over a year later on rejecting the T/A. and you guys are still pounding sand and blowing smoke up your own asses. If there is this great shortage you keep talking about,why are there not A&P schools opening up left and right, to fill this demand? with UNEMPLOYMENT above 9%

There is no shortage, Paul. How many AMT's applied for jobs in JFK, LGA, ORD, DFW, TUL and all the other stations??? Over 800 applied in ORD alone, and how many were hired....40 or so. Doesn't seem like AA had trouble finding help.

Look, our elected leaders should spend time finding alternative ways to bring AA to the table instead of wasting their time pounding the release button. It's going on 4 years of wasted negotiations and WE are no closer to a deal than May 2008, and our leaders are absolutely clueless when it comes to gaining leverage over the company.

I think the union should spend more OUR resources hiring psychologists to perform an analysis of the intelligence level of our elected leaders. It's not surprising the company plays us like a giant grand piano. It's pathetic!!

Someone on another thread said, "You can't fix stupid".

 

[Bob Owens]

There is no shortage, Paul. How many AMT's applied for jobs in JFK, LGA, ORD, DFW, TUL and all the other stations??? Over 800 applied in ORD alone, and how many were hired....40 or so. Doesn't seem like AA had trouble finding help.

Look, our elected leaders should spend time finding alternative ways to bring AA to the table instead of wasting their time pounding the release button. It's going on 4 years of wasted negotiations and WE are no closer to a deal than May 2008, and our leaders are absolutely clueless when it comes to gaining leverage over the company.

.
800, and did you actually see a pile of 800 applications? 800 was the same figure they threw out for JFK yet they still felt they had to start the guys on the third step. Why is that? I me an the company says they won't offer Geo but they are hiring guys in NY 1 at the third step. With 800 guys all looking to fill just 40 slots why pay the third step? Isn't it amazing how there seems to be 800mechanics looking for work in every city? Funny thing is nearly all the guys that they hired came from other jobs on the field. Some came from Non union companies like Delta, Jet Blue and other small operations, I'm assuming many work both places.

Maybe it's more like AA got 800 applications total, for the whole system and what does it take to get and fill out an application? Not much, just go on line and get one. I know management at JFK was complaining that they were having a problem getting people they felt could do the job.

Let's also not lose sight of the fact that the same people who told us all about the "white spaces" are telling us about the 800 applications they have.

Getting the company to come to the table isn't a problem, getting them to bring something is. Why should they bring anything to the table if they know that they have a senior work group, meaning we are less likely to leave, and there is no threat of strikes or other job actions, simply put why should they bring anything to the table when they are getting what they want? If we get released the field is leveled, if they don't bring something to the table within 30 days we can take steps to make sure they aren't getting what they want, from ot bans, to one day strikes to all out strikes and whatever else we deem necessary . Sure the company can retaliate, but what will that result in, intensified hostilities, more bad press, more book away and even worse performance. Just the announcement of a release puts some pressure on the company as people book away. That may not be much of a concern with record load factors but it's still not what any airline wants. The reason for a release is not to get to a strike, it's to put pressure on both sides to reach an agreement, right now there is zero pressure on the company to offer anything, but inflation puts pressure on us to get something. The company loses nothing by waiting, getting released takes that advantage away.

 

[Birdman]

Getting the company to come to the table isn't a problem, getting them to bring something is.

If that's the case, when's the next "informal" meeting? Also, your arguments make sense but nobody thinks we will ever get released.

 

[Buck]

I believe that mechanics are going to hard to find. At Tulsa, in particular hangar 1D, out of the 120 or so mechanics now on Light C's , 30-40 % are new from the OSM class and we are still shorthanded. The lack of experience and the lack of hangar space in Tulsa is alarming for the yields of the 757 and 737 fleets. 737 is going to start 1 or 2 new Light C lines in the near future and sometime in January, some of the heavies will come due. If hangar space and available mechanics in the industry I think the company would have no choice but to farm work out. The union appears to have stopped the farm out of the 757's for now.