Pilot job action?!

[Bob Owens]

Well according to MANY MANY employees on Facebook it goes something like this "..[background=rgb(237, 239, 244)]Pilots are calling everything out of service..everything is delayed or cxld..HORRIBLE!!!![/background]

Pilots dont call planes out of service-maintenence does, mechanics just got a six year deal that not only puts them at the bottom, it establishes a new low. So you may be able to expect things to get better when things get better for them, in six years.

 

[Bob Owens]

The courts consider, simply put, a job action to be anything that is out of the norm. If the company can prove that one standard of behavior existed prior to a certain date, and then after that date, a different standard of behavior was adopted, then the court may side with the employer. This gives a company VERY broad latitude in arguing that any concerted effort by employees that is "outside the norm" can be considered a job action.

Pehaps, but when the standard is that which the company has set then what will the court do? Direct employees to not adhere to the standards the company set and go back to engaging in practices that it discovered the company will not publically support?

Lets cut the BS. Pilots normally sit on defects until they get the plane into a place where the company staffs mechanics, even then, if its a through trip they may refrain from reporting defects if they feel they can still safely operate the aircraft, even though according to the standards set by the company the planes should be grounded until the item is fixed. When a pilot does this, for the sake of the operation and to get people where they need to be, he is putting himself at risk, even if he really isnt putting the passengers at risk. This occrs throughout the industry, at every carrier, probably more prevelant at low cost or non-union carriers. The FAA condones it as long as its not openly admitted. If the FAA didnt condone it they would grab all the logbooks and investigate how its possible that a plane can fly all day long and only have defects to report on its last trip into a maintenance station. Its statistically impossible.

 

[737823]

AA is done, no service company can survive when it has such bad relations with the people who actually provide the service. They will be fine as long as load factors remain high across the industry because consumers arent left with many options when the planes are all full, but that will pass and when it does AA is done.

Everybody is blaming the pilots, claiming that by reporting defects they are having a job action, well isnt a pilot legally required to report defects as he becomes aware of them? The WSJ accused pilots of grounding airplanes, pilots dont ground airplanes, if the book is signed off then they are ready to go-maintenance grounds airplanes, and three out of four line mechanics voted against the deal thats been imposed on them. The mechanics have more of a reason to be pissed than the pilots, they are at the bottom of the industry and will be there for at least six more years. The gap between AA mechanics pay and the average for the industry is huge, its like they are in a different industry or classification, thats why from my point of view as a mechanic the profession would be better off to see AA liquidate before other carriers use AA's contract as leverage to win concessions from their mechanics. With the high load factors we see across the industry, if AA does liquidate other carriers would rapidly expand and probably pick up most of AA's mechanics and pilots. So when a pilot does his job as directed by the company and the FAA and reports a defect when he becomes aware of it do you think the mechanic is going to give any extra effort at resolving the problem?

Bob, how would a liquidation be better? If anything it would just enable a fire sale. The outcome would be similar to TWA and other carriers would cherry pick the crown jewels left at AA (MIA hub, LHR slots, NRT slots, delivery slots for new aircraft, etc). How well did your counterparts at the former TWA fare when AA purchased their assets? What about Eastern? Not sure how you are convinced that could be good for the profession, consolidation would provide synergies and eliminate redundant positions throughout the system.

Like I said three out of four mechanics that work the line voted against this deal, over 96% in the Northeast, do you think that when the pilots find a defect the mechanics are really all that motivated at getting that plane out on time? Why should they? The longer it takes for them to fix it the more opportunity they have to work OT and make up for the concessions that were just rammed down their throats. With such limited IOD time why take shortcuts?

If 3/4 mechanics did indeed vote no I understand your frustration. I find it compelling that the number of votes deemed ineligible would have been enough to vote down the agreement. So it seems the international forced this one through and no wonder many of you feel it is being imposed. During my recent mechanical at ORD on a 738 there were four mechanics standing around on the jetway and gate area for much of the delay not sure what was actually wrong with the aircraft or it the pilots simply "refused to fly" the plane.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

http://blogs.wsj.com...too-unreliable/

those who see Scott McCartney (author of the WSJ article) as against labor/pro mgmt might want to consider that IF (and I am in no way asserting it to be the case) that AA employees are reducing their personal output in order to hurt the company, the WSJ just gave your efforts a huge boost.
Even if AA's operationals return to their former "normal" tomorrow, it will take months to change the mindset of passengers who are buying tickets in the next few months, including during the busy holiday season when many of the cuts at AA will be put in place.
And if there is no desire to harm AA, then the operational issues have spiraled to a level where the subject of AA's reliability has reached a level that there will be harm to AA.

I still would like to know if AA is having these kinds of operational problems in the middle of the month, what is going to happen on the last few days of the month when presumably reserves will be far less available.

 

[Super FLUF]

Even if AA's operationals return to their former "normal" tomorrow, it will take months to change the mindset of passengers who are buying tickets in the next few months, including during the busy holiday season when many of the cuts at AA will be put in place.
And if there is no desire to harm AA, then the operational issues have spiraled to a level where the subject of AA's reliability has reached a level that there will be harm to AA.

Disagree. Your average dolt will log on to orbitz today and if AA is $50 cheaper than everyone else he will book himself and his family on AA.

Those that actively pay attention and read the WSJ will also know exactly when hostilities end and will commence booking on AA again.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Your average dolt doesn't bring the bacon home for airlines... the loyal high value flyers do indeed know how well airline operations run but do you think that even a few weeks of return to normal operations is going to make loyal flyers comfortable when there are thousands of layoffs just around the corner?

Further, alot of that high value traffic is corporate/negotiated traffic. If other carriers can offer competititve fares and schedules even to corporations, that business can move too and it could be years before it returns. There absolutely is data to show that other carriers continue to grow in core AA markets.

Airlines do match status for high value flyers as AA did during UA's operational mess just a couple months ago.

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

Nice to read a passengers comment now and then. Thank you, but a big part of the reason why the airlines find themselves in this picke, is because passengers in general don't care about anything but lower airfares. To be fair I wouldn't turn down a free meal either, so night after night millions of people go on the Internet and bid down the price of a ticket to the point that the airline is better off not flying at all. What the passengers aren't aware of is that a loss of just two cents on a tickets could eventually mean the loss of thousands of airline jobs.

Passengers should have this power taken away from them in the form of airline regulation. Passengers need to be educated too.

The race to the bottom, aka airline deregulation, will continue to yield happier CEOs BODs and even happier passengers as profession workers get tossed in the garbage heap.

Actually, its people like me that keep you paid nd your doors open......because you don't become an EXP by going on Orbitz and finding teh cheapest flight, you do it by flying almost exclusively AA regardless if they are the cheapest. I'm also not a guy who books in discount or deep discount economy and then uses my SWUs to get into business. No, I'm the guy who books in International Business to Asia 7x+ every year and then upgrades to First. So I hand AA from me alone some 40k in just my travel to Asia ALONE.

So for me, everything at AA affects me (like 777s going to two class service). At the end of the day, I smile at A321s doing JFK-LAZ/SFO being outfitted with three classes and new seats, then frown at a 777 being pushed back to two class service. Course I predicted they would do that with the 787s since they never really replaced the two class capacity of the A300s, but they did it with the 777s. Hopefully, that means the 787 will be 3 class service to PVG, if not, United runs a true 3-class service and I will have to leave AA after 17 years.

Now, I will say this: to me service is everything. No one used to do it better than AA in this country.......I don't like Asian service, to "up my ass" for my taste. I wil also say the FAs I have experienced smile and do a great job and only express displeasure when asked in private in a galley. So to me, service by them has been right on par with how it always has been.

So I have done a 180 on this issue, and realize, this airline is done. It cannot survive without happy labor, and I would be F***ing RIP SH**S if I were them after the concessions followed by big bonuses. They deserve better, and if AA can only operate this way, I don't blame the employees for wanting to force the hand of management. Problem is, USAIR is no better with their labor relations, so at the end of the day, a merger with B6 and B6 management taking over is probably the savior for AA. If that happens, and the B6 management is smart enough to throw out the rescently signed contracts and upgrade them, the combination of AA/B6 will be a industry standard and a force to be reckon with.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

 

[Frank Szabo]

Actually, its people like me that keep you paid nd your doors open......because you don't become an EXP by going on Orbitz and finding teh cheapest flight, you do it by flying almost exclusively AA regardless if they are the cheapest. I'm also not a guy who books in discount or deep discount economy and then uses my SWUs to get into business. No, I'm the guy who books in International Business to Asia 7x+ every year and then upgrades to First. So I hand AA from me alone some 40k in just my travel to Asia ALONE.

So for me, everything at AA affects me (like 777s going to two class service). At the end of the day, I smile at A321s doing JFK-LAZ/SFO being outfitted with three classes and new seats, then frown at a 777 being pushed back to two class service. Course I predicted they would do that with the 787s since they never really replaced the two class capacity of the A300s, but they did it with the 777s. Hopefully, that means the 787 will be 3 class service to PVG, if not, United runs a true 3-class service and I will have to leave AA after 17 years.

Now, I will say this: to me service is everything. No one used to do it better than AA in this country.......I don't like Asian service, to "up my ass" for my taste. I wil also say the FAs I have experienced smile and do a great job and only express displeasure when asked in private in a galley. So to me, service by them has been right on par with how it always has been.

So I have done a 180 on this issue, and realize, this airline is done. It cannot survive without happy labor, and I would be F***ing RIP SH**S if I were them after the concessions followed by big bonuses. They deserve better, and if AA can only operate this way, I don't blame the employees for wanting to force the hand of management. Problem is, USAIR is no better with their labor relations, so at the end of the day, a merger with B6 and B6 management taking over is probably the savior for AA. If that happens, and the B6 management is smart enough to throw out the rescently signed contracts and upgrade them, the combination of AA/B6 will be a industry standard and a force to be reckon with.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

Sorry to tell you this, Mr. Traveler, but if Horton succeeds in his little experiment with AA, the balance of USA air transport will follow suit. Moving your loyalty from AA to another carrier will only temporarily fix your problems.

 

[rifbound]

Bob, how would a liquidation be better? If anything it would just enable a fire sale. The outcome would be similar to TWA and other carriers would cherry pick the crown jewels left at AA (MIA hub, LHR slots, NRT slots, delivery slots for new aircraft, etc). How well did your counterparts at the former TWA fare when AA purchased their assets? What about Eastern? Not sure how you are convinced that could be good for the profession, consolidation would provide synergies and eliminate redundant positions throughout the system.



If 3/4 mechanics did indeed vote no I understand your frustration. I find it compelling that the number of votes deemed ineligible would have been enough to vote down the agreement. So it seems the international forced this one through and no wonder many of you feel it is being imposed. During my recent mechanical at ORD on a 738 there were four mechanics standing around on the jetway and gate area for much of the delay not sure what was actually wrong with the aircraft or it the pilots simply "refused to fly" the plane.

Josh

You see the mechanics "standing around" because if something is wrong and it can't be fixed we have to wait/fight with management to keep things from getting "pencil whipped" just to get planes out. I for one hate seeing A/C going out of service. It screws alot of people over but if it is a safety issue it's for the best. Passengers sometimes don't see it that way and others do. I've been on that jet bridge having to take an A/C out of service and have had people call me names, cursing at me, giving me dirty looks and I've had people thank me for looking out for their safety. We have issues like that because things get deferred for so long to get planes off the gate and it all comes to a head sooner or later and then planes go out of service. Nothing you can do about it. Now AA's going to outsource the maintenance on A/C. Just wait and see all the problems that will come from that and the lack of seasoned mechanics are going to be a huge issue because alot of us are getting laid off. Should you be worried? I would be if I were you. I am! This is just my thought on something..If it's gonna fly in America, fix it in America by American. It's unAAmerican to outsource any job!

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, how would a liquidation be better? If anything it would just enable a fire sale. The outcome would be similar to TWA and other carriers would cherry pick the crown jewels left at AA (MIA hub, LHR slots, NRT slots, delivery slots for new aircraft, etc). How well did your counterparts at the former TWA fare when AA purchased their assets? What about Eastern? Not sure how you are convinced that could be good for the profession, consolidation would provide synergies and eliminate redundant positions throughout the system.

EAL mechanics fared better than Pan AM mechanics. Why? Because instead of working at reduced wages for a longer period of time, EAL mechanicss restarted their careers at surviving carriers and saw their wages go up while PAN AM mechanics continued working for less and less to try and prop up a failing carrier. From what I've been told the mood here is like it was at Pan Am in the final days. AA is offering us $36/hr in 2018, thats less than it was in 2003, our peers who went through BK are already making considerably more than that,(except USAIR) if AA were to liquidate, sure their assetts would go cheap but mechanics and pilots labor would not be discounted, they would pay what the contract states. For mechanics its around a five year progression back to top pay, so even if the pay at UAL or other carriers were frozen for the next six years we would still end up at a higher rate than what AA is offering. So liquidation could be preferrable but I said that for the profession (as a whole) it would be better to see AA liquidate than survive. If AA thrives with their BK induced concessions how will that affect the rest of the mechanics in the industry? Do you feel it would be positive? I dont because if AA thrives it will only put pressure on those mechanics to match the concessions that AA was able to get, and if they wont give them then the Airlines will simply stall, like AA did, and either file for BK again, threaten to file, or request release and get the President to issue a PEB. The PEB will simply look at the AA contract and say "How can your employer compete with that? " and grant the concessions. We've even had Non-union mechanics from Jet Blue tell our guys "Thanks for Fu$$%$g us, what the hell were you guys thinking?" Thats why I believe our Pilots rejected the deal, and we should have, if they end up in a PEB the PEB will look at prevailing wages and terms which would be United and Delta. But for mechanics the deal is already done, if UAL goes into a PEB we already lowered the bar, howver if AA Liquidated it would not be considered by the PEB. So, as far as whats best for the profession, liquidation of AA, while it would no doubt be traumatic and disruptive for the mechanics at AA, would be a better outcome for the profession as a whole than allowing a business plan based on super low wages for mechanics to succeed.

If 3/4 mechanics did indeed vote no I understand your frustration. I find it compelling that the number of votes deemed ineligible would have been enough to vote down the agreement. So it seems the international forced this one through and no wonder many of you feel it is being imposed. During my recent mechanical at ORD on a 738 there were four mechanics standing around on the jetway and gate area for much of the delay not sure what was actually wrong with the aircraft or it the pilots simply "refused to fly" the plane.

Josh

I dont know where the story about ineligible votes started from but I havent seen anything that supports it. The fact is it doesnt matter because even if the deal was voted down the International has the final say and they say it passed and is ratified. Ratification votes are not held to the same standards as elections, there is no recourse as far as challenging the vote so even if it could somehow be proven that more people voted NO than YES it doesnt change the fact that the International ratified the contract.

All I can say is dont expect things to get better at AA. Even if AA puts out numbers saying things are better. When you treat your workers as they do you cant expect the same performance that competitors get who treat their workers much better. Sure many of us will stay because at our age its easier to stay than it is to leave and start over again but if the fire, the passion to perform, is gone, its gone, and no amount of threats will relight it. They can hire twice as many Supervisors, it wont help, because the more they take, the less we have to lose and the less interest we take in making things work. Gordon Bethune found that out twenty years ago when he realized you cant cut wages to profitability, I think he said "You can make pizza so cheap nobody will buy it". Management went too far. They were pigs, and pigs get slaughtered.

 

[BigMac]

http://m.newson6.com/Articles.aspx?catId=230990

 

[WorldTraveler]

Sorry to tell you this, Mr. Traveler, but if Horton succeeds in his little experiment with AA, the balance of USA air transport will follow suit. Moving your loyalty from AA to another carrier will only temporarily fix your problems.

no, Frank, there has always been a difference in the levels of pay and service within airlines in the US.

A failure of AA - immediate or long and drawn out - or a long-term depression of wages at AA will not necessarily result in the same thing for other airlines or their employees.

 

[1AA]

Job action?

http://finance.yahoo...-130000686.html

Allied Pilots Association: Decline in American Airlines’ Operational Performance “Management’s Own Making”


“APA independently tracks the airline’s operational performance. We have verified that pilot sick rates have not deviated from normal historical rates. We have likewise verified that crew cancellations remain at normal rates.

“One area of increased operational unreliability we have observed is in mechanical delays, which isn’t surprising. Although American Airlines operates the oldest fleet of any major U.S. carrier, management has decided to furlough a large number of mechanics and close one of its largest maintenance facilities. Management also decided some time ago to reduce its inventory of spare parts.
“In addition, management halted the recalls of furloughed pilots late last year, which has resulted in an insufficient number of pilots to maintain the schedule properly.

 

[eolesen]

The above post is laughable. Not a single mechanic has been laid off, so how can cuts in maintenance be blamed when they haven't happened yet?


Status matches, however, aren't a laughing matter.

If a bunch of top tiers switch at this time of year, they're likely gone for the rest of the year.

But hey, just think of all the seats available for non-revving, eh?

 

[blue collar]

Must've missed the line about no parts.