Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[LSS]

While no contract would ever be voted in using Nic, nothing will happen with DOH, we can't work with that. So where do WE go from here. You won't budge nor will we. How about a third party arbitration to iron this out. When we don't like the final and binding result we can yell do over again. See that's a major sticking point. We MUTUALLY agreed to it and you reneged. What are the odds that you won't bend us over a car hood again?

It seems the only path the West is willing to consider is litigation... as I asked, what will be your position should your litigation fail? What is your plan B?

What the west pilots are holding us accountable for are the decisions made by the ALPA Merger Committee who were on the front lines of this merger, which no line holding puke had any say over. We didn't select who was on the merger committee, we didn't select who was on the joint negotiating committee, in fact, many were truly outraged at some of the appointments to these committees. From my recollection, the merger committee operated autonomously from the MEC... i.e., no line pilot had any say over anything that was transpiring... And guess what else, there were, as is the norm as opposed to the exception, so da*n many closed door sessions, that only the anointed few, truly knew what the he** was going on. And sadly, from what I've witnessed, ALPA was short on "truths" and very long on BS. This was increased from very little from ALPA to hundreds of communications during the NMB election, unlike when the east defined benefit plan was terminated... not one scintilla of support or help was provided by ALPA… in fact, I don't recall receiving ANYTHING from ALPA International about this little non-important item… (didn't affect their ability to collect dues… even though the pilots were stripped of their accrued benefits equivalent to several billion dollars).

And don't even go there that the East wants the West to pay for their misfortunes at the hands of not only totally inept management, but the fat cow that ALPA had become. Not true. However, our goal was to get rid of ALPA, through whatever legal channels were available. You expect the company to be your enemy, not your own union.

So the question still remains… what is your plan B should your litigation fail??? I personally hope everyone will quiet down, think carefully, and put aside egos and think about how we can all reap any benefits that are jointly ours.


So you can all continue to take the hard line and refuse to engage yourself in this process. I hope that Dougie doesn't do another deal before your case can wind its way through the legal system... say in the next four or five years at best... 'cause, it may be a moot point one way or another if that occurs.

 

[Flyz4food]

It seems the only path the West is willing to consider is litigation... as I asked, what will be your position should your litigation fail? What is your plan B?

What the west pilots are holding us accountable for are the decisions made by the ALPA Merger Committee who were on the front lines of this merger, which no line holding puke had any say over. We didn't select who was on the merger committee, we didn't select who was on the joint negotiating committee, in fact, many were truly outraged at some of the appointments to these committees. From my recollection, the merger committee operated autonomously from the MEC... i.e., no line pilot had any say over anything that was transpiring... And guess what else, there were, as is the norm as opposed to the exception, so da*n many closed door sessions, that only the anointed few, truly knew what the he** was going on. And sadly, from what I've witnessed, ALPA was short on "truths" and very long on BS. This was increased 1000 fold during the NMB election, unlike when the east defined benefit plan was terminated... not one scintilla of support or help was provided by ALPA… in fact, I don't recall receiving ANYTHING from ALPA International about this little non-important item… (didn't affect their ability to collect dues… even though the pilots were stripped of their accrued benefits equivalent to several billion dollars).

And don't even go there that the East wants the West to pay for their misfortunes at the hands of not only totally inept management, but the fat cow that ALPA had become. Not true. However, our goal was to get rid of ALPA, through whatever legal channels were available. You expect the company to be your enemy, not your own union.

So the question still remains… what is your plan B should your litigation fail??? I personally hope everyone will quiet down, think carefully, and put aside egos and think about how we can all reap any benefits that are jointly ours.


So you can all continue to take the hard line and refuse to engage yourself in this process. I hope that Dougie doesn't do another deal before your case can wind its way through the legal system... say in the next four or five years at best... 'cause, it may be a moot point one way or another if that occurs.

So if your only goal was to rid the pilot group of ALPA. You have succeeded. Now how about that little issue of FINAL and BINDING that we both agreed to. National had NOTHING to do with that. It was MEC to MEC. East to West. We agreed to that mutually. It didn't work out the way you had hoped. Why won't you at least agree that you won't hold up to what you agreed to do. Tell the truth, you don't like the award that you agreed to and aren't going to honor it. Tell it like it is.
I would agree that ALPA was a giant pyramid scheme with the guys at the top getting all the money. When eveyone was taking pay cuts, they never gave up one dime like the pilots they represented. It got that way through the fault of ALL the pilots at all the carriers. We sat back and let it happen. If ALPA was to be removed as the CBA then it should have been done on ALL the pilots terms, not just the one half that was pissed off. We should have had a contract in place years ago and be making more money with better benefits.

 

[LSS]

So if your only goal was to rid the pilot group of ALPA. You have succeeded. Now how about that little issue of FINAL and BINDING that we both agreed to. National had NOTHING to do with that. It was MEC to MEC. East to West. We agreed to that mutually. It didn't work out the way you had hoped. Why won't you at least agree that you won't hold up to what you agreed to do. Tell the truth, you don't like the award that you agreed to and aren't going to honor it. Tell it like it is.
I would agree that ALPA was a giant pyramid scheme with the guys at the top getting all the money. When eveyone was taking pay cuts, they never gave up one dime like the pilots they represented. It got that way through the fault of ALL the pilots at all the carriers. We sat back and let it happen. If ALPA was to be removed as the CBA then it should have been done on ALL the pilots terms, not just the one half that was pissed off. We should have had a contract in place years ago and be making more money with better benefits.

What you're not acknowledging is that arbitration was the only route through ALPA, the east nor the west had any say over that... it was under the infamous ALPA Merger "policy", "guidelines" what ever term du jour they decided to call it. So if we're at a stalemate, what is the resolution?... I know arbitration... final and binding. Well, you can deem us dishonorable, or whatever term your choose, but the line pilots did not agree to this procedure, it was forced upon us by ALPA national. I have no doubt that the east pilots are not the evil seeds everyone on the west wants to portray them to be. We want to work with you, but we can't help you if you refuse to get involved. If you are protected to the same extent as if a merger never occurred, but may reap the benefits (should there ever be any for the grunt line pilot), what beef could you have?

One final question, except I've never received an answer as to what your Plan B will be should your litigation fail... Have your legal counsel been willing to take your suit on a contingency basis? As I would think, if you have such a slam, dunk case, the law firms would be lining up to do so... on contingency basis that is.

 

[Flyz4food]

What you're not acknowledging is that arbitration was the only route through ALPA, the east nor the west had any say over that... it was under the infamous ALPA Merger "policy", "guidelines" what ever term du jour they decided to call it. So if we're at a stalemate, what is the resolution?... I know arbitration... final and binding. Well, you can deem us dishonorable, or whatever term your choose, but the line pilots did not agree to this procedure, it was forced upon us by ALPA national. I have no doubt that the east pilots are not the evil seeds everyone on the west wants to portray them to be. We want to work with you, but we can't help you if you refuse to get involved. If you are protected to the same extent as if a merger never occurred, but may reap the benefits (should there ever be any for the grunt line pilot), what beef could you have?

One final question, except I've never received an answer as to what your Plan B will be should your litigation fail... Have your legal counsel been willing to take your suit on a contingency basis? As I would think, if you have such a slam, dunk case, the law firms would be lining up to do so... on contingency basis that is.

In the infamous words of your Presidente, "We'll have no plan B, and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it." Same as you, we firmly believe we are in the right. The only ones getting rich are the lawyers. I've asked that same question many times before. I still have no reply as well. Why is that? Both sides claim the cure for cancer, but neither is willing to divulge it. Is there a middle? I hope so.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Keep up those Academy Award winning tantrums. Meanwhile, the real pilots will be getting down to business to get a fair contract for ALL.

Later,
Eye

 

[EastUS]

Both sides claim the cure for cancer, but neither is willing to divulge it.

Well..at least we've found a cure for Alpo so far

"Is there a middle? I hope so." It would then definately seem to be in all of our collective best interest for the west to become involved and start working for such. I've always been, and will continue to be very much a believer in the virtues of DOH, but I don't wish to see west pilots harmed through any "free-for-all" bidding. I've long suggested fences/restrictions/etc. What we can actually work out's up to all of us in the end. Should the west instead choose to remain "silent"...well....??? Nobody out here reads minds very well....nor do any west soothsayers have much of a track record in that department. It's likely best that we communicate with the union on the issues.

 

[Flyz4food]

Keep up those Academy Award winning tantrums. Meanwhile, the real pilots will be getting down to business to get a fair contract for ALL.

Later,
Eye

"Real" pilots...oh come now. How can you call a "cost neutral" contract "fair". I am still cuckling about the ALL part too. You will have to show me that contract. If it is indeed fair to all, then WE as a pilot group, UNITED, will have to ratify it. If indeed the workings of USAPA are to be fair to all, let's see what is fair in you proposal.

 

[boeingtamer]

You think that vote split was a collective majority? What happens when things don't work out and people jump ship?

While the vote may technically indicate a majority, things are never as simple as they appear. I can only speak from the East perspective but the USAPA voters were anything but a homogeneous group. Many, who were greatly affected by Nic voted on that issue alone. Others, hardly touched by Nic, have hated ALPA every since the late night MEC vote to give away the Pension plan without membership ratification and voted that issue alone. Still others just plain feel that ALPA is a bloated organization that has delivered NOTHING good in the last 15 years. A few others, although not much affected by Nic, thought putting a 3 month new hire ahead of a 16 year guy still flying on the US certificate at MDA was unfair and voted USAPA on principal. Some may have just put their finger in the air and voted with the yellow lanyards. Although they all voted USAPA, there were also varying levels of intensity in their fervor for USAPA. Contrary to what I've seen on this board, the majority of Easties, as we are called here, are reasonable and decent guys. Some even held their nose as they voted USAPA. When an otherwise decent guy feels his welfare, and that of his family, are threatened fear brings out the worst in human nature. I would suspect that the West is not all that different. Those with the most to lose from a DOH list also yell the loudest. I have to believe that the vast majority there are also decent guys but that many are driven by fear. Some probably believe in there hearts that an independent union is preferable to ALPA if it weren't for the Nic issue. Didn't McIllvenna lead that charge in the past? I even believe there as some west pilots that know that Nic, although won fair and square, was a coup for them. We all can rationalize almost anything if it's good for us. Ask the high paid corporate Execs if they deserve their paychecks.

I still maintain that any result forced by litigation or majority rule, no matter who prevails, is going to create a caustic work environment that will make the rest of our careers miserable, guarantee decades of substandard contracts, and possibly destroy the company. Our only hope is that the reasonable of our ranks might inject some moderation into this standoff. That means something between Nic and straight DOH. The only solution that will truly work is a negotiated solution. The ego driven desire to be "right at any cost" may feel good now, but the long term price will be too great for everyone envolved, no matter who wins.

ALPA failed and unless the West pragmatically engages USAPA in some meaningful dialog, we are doomed to fail again... and I mean WE because the winners will ultimately lose too. I'd like to say I'm hopeful but knowing human nature it is tough to see an easy resolution.... I'm still praying though.

 

[smoot4208]

I like how the west thinks Binding arbitration counts under a new union. My best comparison to Alpa/USAPA is if a husband and wife get divorced in the united states and split legal rights 50/50 to their child, and then later they both move to europe....they do not have to follow the 50/50 split in legal rights to the child. they are now citizens of a diferent country and therefore the the rules of the U.S. do not apply.

Same goes for arbitration. Now that we are no longer ALPA, we no longer have to go by their arbitration.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So now only the west is hurting themselves? USAPA divided the pilot group. There is no UNITY. As it stands right now, the West can make a decision only to be denied by your majority. As you said, there is a way to work this out without the rhetoric and BS. Why is it you can only see that now that the tides have changed. You had that opportunity to do that under ALPA, but chose not to. Both sides couldn't come to happy medium while engaged in negotiations. Whose fault is that? You think now it will be different.

West hurting themselves? Not yet, but failing to participate in the new union isn't going to help.

USAPA divided this group? Oh please give me a break. The TA made sure that we were paid separately at different rates. Tell me again how we were united? Then to add insult, the lack of support for parity didn't exactly bring us together. ALPA leaders really messed that up. Then we come to find out from some west posters that same lack of support was meant to be leverage against the east. How did that leverage work out now?

As for ALPA's solution, once again it was a joke. Your people have said enough is enough, give us the Nic now or face a DFR. I could imagine that ALPA is breathing a sigh of relief about now over that. However, as for the choices, you too were given the same opportunity so it works both ways.

Fault? It's both our faults and denial by the west up until just before the vote. How many times did we have to hear from some west posters that we didn't have the cards, or file them (I dare you), or the best one about a little bird telling we were broke? Even to the point a west poster saying the night before the vote only 60% of the east voted. Do you think that gives a good basis for building a new union? No it doesn't.

Like I have said before "You have to start somewhere". So this is where we are starting, like it or not.

 

[EastUS]

"Real" pilots...oh come now. How can you call a "cost neutral" contract "fair". I am still cuckling about the ALL part too. You will have to show me that contract. If it is indeed fair to all, then WE as a pilot group, UNITED, will have to ratify it. If indeed the workings of USAPA are to be fair to all, let's see what is fair in you proposal.

NO one out here's thinking of any "cost neutral contract"...that's entirely west/Alpoid-BS "spin"...believe what you will otherwise.

"You will have to show me that contract." Have you any suggestions/inputs/thoughts?..Or is that naught but a whine-fest?

 

[Flyz4food]

I like how the west thinks Binding arbitration counts under a new union. My best comparison to Alpa/USAPA is if a husband and wife get divorced in the united states and split legal rights 50/50 to their child, and then later they both move to europe....they do not have to follow the 50/50 split in legal rights to the child. they are now citizens of a diferent country and therefore the the rules of the U.S. do not apply.

Same goes for arbitration. Now that we are no longer ALPA, we no longer have to go by their arbitration.

What have you been smoking. Nothing goes away. It was inherited, you still honor our contract, the transition agreement, and the arbitration. Nic can't be used until we get a joint contract. It will be interesting if that applys under a USAPA contract as well. Wouldn't that be something.

Oh yeah, find another analogy.

 

[Flyz4food]

NO one out here's thinking of any "cost neutral contract"...that's entirely west/Alpoid-BS "spin"...believe what you will otherwise.

"You will have to show me that contract." Have you any suggestions/inputs/thoughts?..Or is that naught but a whine-fest?

Come now East, I'm not whining. Really. Have you watched the videos on Youtube. The guy says it, COST NEUTRAL.

 

[EastUS]

Come now East, I'm not whining. Really. Have you watched the videos on Youtube. The guy says it, COST NEUTRAL.

As I said..Believe what you will otherwise. It serves no purpose, and really doesn't much matter, if you're just going to sit on the sidelines, busying yourself cheering on some fantasy. There's no shortage of accumulated material that well serves mutual animosity and mistrust. I'll simply ask you if you honestly believe that the east pilots aren't interested in more money and better working conditions and benefits? If that "makes sense" to you..then follow the bitterest of yours out there bent on rancour and BS at any cost.

Whatever else is true of the wonderfull world of litigation; It isn't an expeditious process, and costs a whole lotta' money. If you folks are up for that = Fine, I certainly can't argue against any/all working within their rights as citizens. If there's substantial sentiment out there to delay any/all contractual talks untill some magical decree of "Hail Nic" is ever found in any courtroom...then; kindly forgive us out here if we're less interested in waiting that BS out. No one can perfectly describe any future legal outcomes...but; I must note that your group's most vocal sorts/leadership have been utterly WRONG on every major assumption they've posted thus far....just a thought for some consideration, and no offence meant.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

How can you call a "cost neutral" contract "fair". I am still cuckling about the ALL part too. You will have to show me that contract.

If it is indeed fair to all, then WE as a pilot group, UNITED, will have to ratify it. If indeed the workings of USAPA are to be fair to all, let's see what is fair in you proposal.

The campaign is over. The cost neutral statement harped on by the west was taken completely out of context. Then grew into it's own issue. The big lie theory strikes again. That's OK, if it makes you feel better to believe that, go ahead. The next contract will not be as good as it should be because of our division.

Yep you're right about the next contract. It will have to be ratified by one group only. The only problem I see is what Doug will do in light of the present economics. But his statement about one contract and one pay scale is very telling. Have been told over and over to enjoy LOA93 for a long time. I hope it doesn't mean that all of us will be enjoying it. But divided as we are, to my west brethren the decision time is fast approaching. Which starting point do you think Doug will use? Yours or mine?

Added: I also watched the "Cost neutral" statement on the USAPA tape first and then the YouTube videos your people put out. It started in CLT and grew into an issue exasperated at the west meeting. Believe what you want. I can't change and I suspect you can't either over this cost neutral issue. Oh well.