Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[AAA73Pilot]

Well that's too bad. Sounds like the majority will be against it in the new contract. Oh well PBS was nice to have while it was on property. Thanks for the non emotional replies.

I can't speak for others, my only exposure to something like PBS was a predecessor program called SLIC. Selected Lines Individually Constructed. Didn't like it then, and not sure I would like it now. The biggest problem I saw repeatedly was the leftover trips for the junior people. There was no rhyme or reason to line construction. You had better live in base to have a life.

Maybe you can share with us the benefits of PBS versus our own system followed by 2 adjustment chances. SAP and the bid sheet. Then again I have some nonconformist views compared to my cohorts. So I'm open to anything that provides flexibility and quality of life improvements.

 

[boeingtamer]

Our favorite millionaire ex-CEO and Johnny Ornstein best friend David Siegel is quoted in a new article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. It is interesting article and includes the excerpt below. Link to the entire article follows:

Several also filed for bankruptcy protection. One of the first was US Airways, led at the time by Mr. Siegel. Once the airline reemerged from its first bankruptcy, Mr. Siegel began looking for merger partners; he even gave thought to a takeover of United, calling the idea "Project Minnow." And early in 2004, he made his prediction that the industry would eventually winnow to three large U.S. carriers (and three discount carriers), saying he did not want US Airways to be left out. The next year, after having been removed as CEO of US Airways, he detailed how that might happen in a February 2005 speech at Georgetown University.

He predicted the following tie-ups:

• American Airlines and Alaska Airlines.

• Continental and United (rumored to be in the works)

• Northwest and Delta (announced last week)

• America West and US Airways (which was announced in May 2005 and closed in September 2005)

• Southwest, ATA and AirTran.

• JetBlue Airways, Frontier and Independence Air.​

Is Mr. Parker considering "Project Minnow" again?

Link to article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08111/874717-28.stm

 

[73320]

I've no personal clue as to how your current system works out there, what's required,what the costs are/etc. My immediate/knee-jerk response, from times of old (yeah...I know...easy there) 😉...is that it wasn't worth much for us to fret over years back, but; you may have something considerably better in place. I'd say anything that might offer improvements to pilot life is worth a look.

Most PBS users struggle the first few months to get bid results right and then they like it. I would guess 90% satisfaction rate compared to line building. The 10% #### about everything. The west has first come first serve open time in addition to pilot to pilot trade board. Junior pilots in base can and do substantially improve line quality. This too should be taken away from them.

 

[HogDriver]

How to fix the system for ALL Pilots

It amazes me how much conflict comes from pilots fighting pilots when the common goal should be what is best for our entire group. I have been in this business now for nearly 23 years with Eastern and Usair, and also the Air Force. I have seen the enemy and it is us.

The reason so many are yelling and screaming is because we all want to reach that golden ticket....the biggest jet and the highest pay. The current pay system we work under was designed in an era of props and airmail. The bigger the aircraft, the more you make. Also the huge difference between left and right seats pay came from a time when the capt. was god, the co-pilot did not know crap, and you had to gain experience to make it to the good pay. This system as as relevent as a tri-motor on the ramp.

The reason the Nic pushed so many buttons for the east was, if it stood, younger less LOS west pilots would gain the coveted seats ahead of us, thereby reducing our pay and retirement after many years of service, sacrifice and investment in a company that always seemed to fall short. Is that fair? Is that right? No, but who could blame a west pilot for wanting the same thing any other would...I deserve good pay and a good retirement.

I propose a paradigm shift in pilot pay. It is redicules to have such pay differences between equipment and seats. Our airline has a small number of wide-bodies, yet there is where the top money goes. Tell me there is a difference between flying a 330, a 320 and a 190. All require the same training, testing and skill. You can argue the 190 takes more as you operate in and out of difficult airports all day while a 330 has a nice long cruise across the pond on one leg. I believe a length of service pay ( just like any other employee ) vs. aircraft catagory pay, along with a more closely aligned CA-F/O pay spread can take away most of the infighting we will have on this property for the next 50 years.

Think about it. If you are a ten or twenty year F/O...constantly waiting to up grade to make the better pay, suddenly it is not such a change worth chasing all over the system. Instead of 30-40% difference to Capt, a 10 or 20% increase does not mean it would be worth commuting all over the system just to hold a seat. Same goes for catagory flying. If the 330 pays the same as a 190, why bust your balls to keep training and moving to get that golden ticket.

I see this as soothing the east-west conflict, saving the company millions in un-needed training, making the pay fair and rational for ALL pilots at every stage of their career, and protecting us from future aircraft purchase decisions by the company. What do you think is more likely....a big buy of wide bodies....or more 190's to replace the 737 fleet. Under this plan pilots would not care what a/c the company bought. As it is set now, a 190-737 replacement would cause more pay to go down in the future. That is just stupid.

Under this plan seniority would still be used for tip selection, vacation, etc., but the big motivator...getting better pay at the expense of someone else would disappear.

Some will say not doable...co. won't buy it....senior pilots won't like it, etc. I see it as a once in a lifetime opportunity to go with this. One, we have a new union. Two, all pay is so low that even with a rationalizing of the pay levels everyone will still get a raise. Three, the alternative of doing the same ole same ole is a divided pilot group, constant climbing over each other for that golden ring, and possible future loss of pay with more 190's showing up in the future. Four, the cost in training savings to the company could be huge.

It is how UPS and BA pay their pilots. It tends to make the larger Int'l planes more Jr. as older guys with more seniority bidding the short-haul one time-zone trips vs. the long haul grind. I certainly do not want to be humping across the pond at 64 yrs old. If pay was based on years of service it would not make a difference what aircraft you needed to fly.

The AirForce also has the same type system. Does not matter what seat or equipment you fly. Just your time in service sets your pay.


If someone has a better idea I am all ears. The time for a rational change has come. We have a short window to try and get it done. I hope we do for ALL our pilots sake.

 

[John]

I like how the west thinks Binding arbitration counts under a new union. My best comparison to Alpa/USAPA is if a husband and wife get divorced in the united states and split legal rights 50/50 to their child, and then later they both move to europe....they do not have to follow the 50/50 split in legal rights to the child. they are now citizens of a diferent country and therefore the the rules of the U.S. do not apply.

Same goes for arbitration. Now that we are no longer ALPA, we no longer have to go by their arbitration.

Hey smoot, your "analogy" is COMPLETELY and totally incorrect! Like most of the USAPA crowd your running on emotion and little if any rational thought. Are you familiar with International law??? Specifically the Hague Convention on International child abduction? I was personally involved in such a case (your analogy) and can tell you after spending thousands of dollars I won my case in Europe for "wrongful removal" of my child from the United States and the mother was ordered by a German court to return our child. So do a little legal research before you try to make an analogy on something that you are ignorant of. Legal and binding arbitration is much the same way. It doesn't just go away by virtue of new CBA.

 

[smoot4208]

How come when ever people mention DOH with fences around the hubs, the west never responds with an educated answer. If no one is aloud to take your position at your hub, then how does that not meet pre-merger expectations? Even if fences lasted for 15 years how is that not fair? I understand that the furlough pilots is a different situation, but I don't understand how this is not fair?


I am starting a poll for all east pilots....since the west pilots think we all just want to come to PHX and take their jobs, I made a poll for east pilots to see how many would relocate to PHX if they had the opportunity....My guess is that it will not be that many...This way they can stop saying that.

 

[smoot4208]

actually I have done my research just like i always do. I do that in order to cover myself. So going on...YES the analogy works in certain cases. YES there are rules that the US court system does not have the power once you are a citizen of another country. you are right however if the person commits a crime. However you can go through a new court process in your new country as long as both the mother and father are citizens of the new country. (both east and west pilots are now USAPA) This means that it is possible to have a new arbitrator.
when ALPA exec found nothing wrong with the Nic award that was alpa. Now a new group can challenge the award....this is chance we have to take

 

[Bear96]

How come when ever people mention DOH with fences around the hubs, the west never responds with an educated answer.

As I understand it (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong), the answer is that may have been an acceptable solution before East forced the arbitration, depending on the reasonableness of the fences.

Why wasn't East amenable to that concept during the negotiations and mediation that preceded the Nic arbitration? Instead, the East position was pure DOH or die.

 

[sharktooth]

Hey smoot, your "analogy" is COMPLETELY and totally incorrect! Like most of the USAPA crowd your running on emotion and little if any rational thought. Are you familiar with International law??? Specifically the Hague Convention on International child abduction? I was personally involved in such a case (your analogy) and can tell you after spending thousands of dollars I won my case in Europe for "wrongful removal" of my child from the United States and the mother was ordered by a German court to return our child. So do a little legal research before you try to make an analogy on something that you are ignorant of. Legal and binding arbitration is much the same way. It doesn't just go away by virtue of new CBA.

John,

That was one of the more incomprehensible, emotion-laden responses I have seen in quite awhile.

Smoot suggested that their might be different laws in different countries and you responded with a case that involves international law. Wow! Did you miss the point.
You might wish to remember that international law only applies between two countries that sign onto the law, most of the time. The US is a prime violator of international law so your example might not even apply.

 

[EastUS]

As I understand it (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong), the answer is that may have been an acceptable solution before East forced the arbitration, depending on the reasonableness of the fences.

Why wasn't East amenable to that concept during the negotiations and mediation that preceded the Nic arbitration? Instead, the East position was pure DOH or die.

"Why wasn't East amenable to that concept during the negotiations and mediation that preceded the Nic arbitration?" Who even knows if the involved Alpoids were, or weren't?...What difference does it now make? Nevermind: Golly!...That all "makes sense" then = It's/EVERYTHING'S entirely the East's "fault" (how refreshingly original), and, by seeming implication; none of us, on either side, should now seek to work together on any level?....That's so utterly brilliant a "solution" that I'm left speechless.....Oh!..Wait a second..that's actually NO solution at all to offer...but; at least it's another dodge and tap dance around answering the simple question of why fences and restrictions wouldn't be reasonable. Oh!..Wait yet again = "that may have been an acceptable solution before..." and magically isn't anymore?...Umm...OK...that certainly "makes sense" then...sigh. It's a very good thing that it's clearly, and exclusively the east that, per John is: "running on emotion and little if any rational thought."

We've all got a lot of work to do.

 

[John]

actually I have done my research just like i always do. I do that in order to cover myself. So going on...YES the analogy works in certain cases. YES there are rules that the US court system does not have the power once you are a citizen of another country. you are right however if the person commits a crime. However you can go through a new court process in your new country as long as both the mother and father are citizens of the new country. (both east and west pilots are now USAPA) This means that it is possible to have a new arbitrator.
when ALPA exec found nothing wrong with the Nic award that was alpa. Now a new group can challenge the award....this is chance we have to take

New arbitrator??? Believe what you want. I was never a citizen of Germany and I won the case! The German court had to follow the laws of the Hague, history and legal precedence of US law. Much the same way the Nic will not just go away with a new CBA. Funny though, the history of my child abduction case reminds me much of what USAPA is "hoping" for. The mother's lawyer wrote motion after motion, page after page of how the mother was German and now that she was safely living in her country of residence that she was bound under her legal system and not the US. However, this meant nothing per the Hague. USAPA is "hoping" as the new CBA that the past "final and binding" award will just go away as this was done under ALPA policy. Don't think so, we will find out.

The other item is, what is keeping Dougie and company from just saying to USAPA, "already signed the list, off the table, lets talk pay rates.. hmmm. oil is at an all time high, recession is looming, maybe another concession is in order to keep this co from going bankrupt... What leverage will the USAPA negotiators have?

 

[EastUS]

Believe what you want. I was never a citizen of Germany and I won the case! Don't think so, we will find out.

The other item is, what is keeping Dougie and company from just saying to USAPA, "already signed the list, off the table, lets talk pay rates.. hmmm. oil is at an all time high, recession is looming, maybe another concession is in order to keep this co from going bankrupt... What leverage will the USAPA negotiators have?

With zero sarcasm intended; I'm very pleased that the child custody issue resolved in your favor. I can't imagine anything more emotionally devastating than having one's child taken away. As for the "what is keeping Dougie and company" notions...well...whatever else is true of Tempe..they aren't completely stupid, and trying anything of the sort wouldn't benefit their purposes. See listings under" Hey!..I've got a brilliant idea! Let's completely cater to a third of the pilot force, and send the other two thirds, working the most lucrative routes, into outright rebellion!".."These people have just proved that they're deadly serious about never accepting Nic..so what better way to ensure harmony and efficiency all around!?" Rarely a well-proven strategem for anyone even remotely sane. You may argue for the counterpoint via alienating the third...and then, properly consider which you would more happily do were you management, and had to choose. If you're hoping for Nic, even if coupled with some concessionary contract...you've still got this little problem of majority ratification to deal with. Why would/should anyone out east vote for anything of the sort? Alpo couldn't sell it, even with fake promises of some greatly enhanced contract. Do you honestly expect management would have better luck? I'm sure that Tempe knows it's in their best interests to seek something workable via negotiations. Nic's a non-starter therein, and is even against the very constitution of the union. It's always advisable not to actually be: "running on emotion and little if any rational thought."

 

[CactusFlyr]

How come when ever people mention DOH with fences around the hubs, the west never responds with an educated answer. If no one is aloud to take your position at your hub, then how does that not meet pre-merger expectations? Even if fences lasted for 15 years how is that not fair? I understand that the furlough pilots is a different situation, but I don't understand how this is not fair?


I am starting a poll for all east pilots....since the west pilots think we all just want to come to PHX and take their jobs, I made a poll for east pilots to see how many would relocate to PHX if they had the opportunity....My guess is that it will not be that many...This way they can stop saying that.

We actually did mention fences during the negotiations, you guys wouldn't have any of it. Funny how you are stuck on DOH, the response to your question is that DOH is not policy anymore unless you haven't noticed. FYI, another merger comes down the pipe, you guys are &^%$'ed, you have pissed off everybody.

 

[EastUS]

We actually did mention fences during the negotiations, you guys wouldn't have any of it. Funny how you are stuck on DOH, the response to your question is that DOH is not policy anymore unless you haven't noticed. FYI, another merger comes down the pipe, you guys are &^%$'ed, you have pissed off everybody.

We're not Alpo anymore, so; what "policy" are we discussing?

What's your current thinking on fences?

"FYI, another merger comes down the pipe, you guys are &^%$'ed, you have pissed off everybody." No doubt. the entire world, "everybody" will be gunning for those miserable Easties, and will do anything possible to help the west pilots in their righteous crusade...especially those with actual years of seniority that, I'm sure, would be thrilled to embrace "relative" notions. Ummm..Are you even remotely serious? Do you actually imagine that any other pilot groups care in the least where any, other than themselves, end up on any seniority roster?

I see 767jetz reading. Let's ask him exactly where he thinks the highest seniority AWA captain should be placed on any combined list with UAL. This ought ta' be good 😉
Let's follow that up with exactly where he thinks that YOU should be placed relative to himself..and..WHY. 😉

 

[CactusFlyr]

Not policy, just the current SOP for everybody concerned. If you don't understand that then........ I'm done, won't argue with you guys anymore. FYI, enjoy your ride to work. I commute and got grilled by an other airline pilot until I produced West credentials.