Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[Phoenix]

.... You had the majority of the eligible vote and won. ...

In the interest of accuracy I must disagree.

"you" was not on the ballot. "USAPA" received the majority of eligible votes.

 

[EastUS]

This vote was a sham and you know it.
In the interest of unity......let's have a do over and hold the election again.

"This vote was a sham and you know it." If one's party's in the minority, and doesn't get it's desired results..that hardly makes any collective vote a "sham", unless you dont much believe in the "One Person/One Vote" concept.

"In the interest of unity......let's have a do over and hold the election again." I truly believe that you would see more unfavorable numbers for your side than happened the first time.

We have what we have to work with...whether or not you participate is up to you.

 

[Piedmont1984]

This vote was a sham and you know it. Pure numbers thats all it was. Similar to the voting in Cuba or Iraq and in Russia. You had the majority of the eligible vote and won. Please realize that many of your side didn't follow party lines. A couple of hundred more....200 or so...perhaps the ones that couldn't change their decision (one from emotion to reality or one from watching your inabilities via video) the outcome would have been entirely different.

In the interest of unity......let's have a do over and hold the election again.

Wait a sec. Isn't that the way voting is supposed to work? The majority wins the vote? Pure numbers as in pure democracy? I'm not sure what you are suggesting. For you to compare this vote with one in Cuba or pre-invasion Iraq demonstrates a breathtaking ignorance of world events as well as recent events on this property.

 

[elixir]

That was actually directed at East but no matter.

Please tell me.

Did you happen to ask what conditions the east negotiators stipulated were necessary for negotiations to proceed?

No, I didn't. Neither of us had much time to talk at the time. That would be important, I agree.

The east opening position was, DOH, followed by a demand that all upgrades for a five year period would have to be east pilots. This was due to the change in the retirement age.

IF, IF, that is the truth, then I agree, that is an unfair position to take.

The east negotiators felt that the age change was more unfair to their FOs than to anyone else and the west should bear the cost for this change.

Again, if your characterization is true and unbiased, and if that was the case, I think thats unfair to West.

Yes, based on those preconditions the west negotiators left the table.

OK, so it is true that West walked, that much we can agree on. If what you say was actually the case, then I would agree that some unfair benchmarks were set by the East.

In any case, you need to realize that just because you're talking to East pilots on here, not everyone has the benefit of the truth, from ALPA or anybody else for that matter.

According to 767jetz, East could've just "changed out the MEC"...not so, ALPA was taking astonishing measures to ignore the pilots they were charged to represent, they barged in and ignored, replaced, and trumped anyone who stood in their way, with Prater driving the train.

The result of such Soprano's behavior? USAPA.

I'd also add this: this is a textbook example of how and why ALPA by it's very nature can't work. Have you considered that the ALPA endorsed suggestions as "hard-line" were derived from ALPA's perception of unfairness via NIC on the East pilots.

Nope, serving two masters, ki$$ing babies while you steal their candy doesn't work.


I hope this all works out in the end, thats all I know.

 

[Flyz4food]

We have what we have to work with...whether or not you participate is up to you.
[/quote]
Okay...here's my participation. I love you guys, can't wait to be part of your team. I have an idea....how about we start by using the Nic award as we had already agreed to. It's interesting that you keep saying, "it's what we have to work with" now that you have imposed a new regime on us.

 

[ableoneable]

OK, so it is true that West walked, that much we can agree on. If what you say was actually the case, then I would agree that some unfair benchmarks were set by the East.

In any case, you need to realize that just because you're talking to East pilots on here, not everyone has the benefit of the truth, from ALPA or anybody else for that matter.

According to 767jetz, East could've just "changed out the MEC"...not so, ALPA was taking astonishing measures to ignore the pilots they were charged to represent, they barged in and ignored, replaced, and trumped anyone who stood in their way, with Prater driving the train.

The result of such Soprano's behavior? USAPA.

I hope this all works out in the end, thats all I know.

Do not take my word for any of this.

I am sure you can get in contact with one of the east pilots who was directly involved in the negotiations.

Even if you are not a union insider all of the confidentiality agreements were attached to ALPA and are no longer valid. You should be able to get your people to tell you what went on behind closed doors.

 

[EastUS]

I feel free to lecture you on taking responsibility because everything the happens to the east that is bad is the fault of evil ALPA national and everything good that happens is because you are all courageous soldiers of fortune.

I see that you are at least consistent; anyone who "dares lecture the great and mighty EastUS" is a "yapping puppy."

You are infallible. Understood.



As Trader so eloquently put it; "We are here to steal your jobs. Now that we have done it let's all get along and work together."

Unlikely.

1) I've never served as a mercenary...although some of the liberal-left might disagree.
2) I don't inherently presume you to be an irresponsible person, and I don't much take BS from anyone on such issues in return...period.
3) I'm hardly infallible, and make no such claims at any level. Heck..I coulda'/shoulda' bailed for SWest, Fed Ex/ANYOBODY Years back..but, being quite fallible; who knew the future? 😉
4) You actually have NOTHING out west that I'd even ever want to "steal", and I've always posted the truth of my feelings on having protections for all west pilot slots.
OK = We've full reasons for mutual mistrust/animosity/etc..what's new?...Sigh. Any constructive ideas on how to actually move forward as any semblance of a group?

 

[dariencc]

ALPA national took every opportunity to assist your side. I don't genneraly agree with Holly Hedgemen but on this issue she called it correctly. Had Prater presented the list right away and insisted that JNC talks continue we would probably have a contract in place.

Now there's an expert on AAA Alpa matters for you, Holly "Hedgeman." She knows as much about this issue as you do about spelling her name. Ms. Hegeman stated, on the eve of the NMB announcement, that she believed Alpa had narrowly pulled it out. I am surprised you didn't quote her then.

It might interest you to learn that the source of Ms. Hegeman's confusion, and indeed her longtime primary source for LCC union matters, is a well known celebrity and legendary thinker on this very webboard. None other than the distinguished USA320Pilot. It is nice to know that you are both on the same page of so many issues. Great minds think alike.

However Prater agreed with you. He thought that the Nicolau list was unfair and he took every opportunity to try and force the west to re-negotiate.

The leader of the Air Line Pilots Association agreed with us and thought Nicolau was unfair? That is astounding, the man must be a complete dunce. I don't want anything to do with a union that would be led by such an idiot.

I've got a great idea..........let's dump Alpo!

 

[tazz]

prechilill,
What's done is done. If the west pilots don't cooperate I guess the east will speak for you. That would not be prudent. It's up to you guys. Otherwise, you might find the antonym for "prudent" and that would describe the westies choice not to work with the east.

Later,
Eye

That's rich! Whether the west cooperates or not the east will speak for them. Thus the tyranny of usapa. Guess what, guys, the west will never cooperate because we realize that we will never be represented fairly. The only choice we have is to do everything in our power to help usapa fail. I have been a west pilot for 10 years and have never seen such unity among the group. Your chances of accomplishing anything are slim to none.

 

[elixir]

Do not take my word for any of this.

I am sure you can get in contact with one of the east pilots who was directly involved in the negotiations.

Even if you are not a union insider all of the confidentiality agreements were attached to ALPA and are no longer valid. You should be able to get your people to tell you what went on behind closed doors.

I am not an ALPA insider, I'm a recalled furloughee who stands to gain very little from arguing about NIC or anything else senioritywise, I've said that before. I have 3 years at the company and 7 on FUR.

My point, sir, is that there is/was so much BS from the ALPA charade out East that the average line pilot would never be able sort it out...

Secret ALPA closed-door meetings, decision-making behind closed doors, deal-making behind closed doors...on and on. And when the line pilots stood up to be heard, and found LEC's who would listen, ALPA got rid of them, "for the good of the whole"...I guess that would be National....it certainly didn't serve the very group they were elected to represent.

Understand that there are a multitude of reasons why USAPA came to be, it's much deeper than Nic.

 

[ableoneable]

3) I'm hardly infallible, and make no such claims at any level. Heck..I coulda'/shoulda' bailed for SWest, Fed Ex/ANYOBODY Years back..but, being quite fallible; who knew the future? 😉

Well what do you know, we are brothers after all.

I too blew off WN, Delta and NW, though I don't regret the NW.

I also did not buy a house in San Diego in 1997 because $230,000 seemed like a lot of money.
How stupid can you get?

 

[EastUS]

The leader of the Air Line Pilots Association agreed with us and thought Nicolau was unfair? That is astounding, the man must be a complete dunce. I don't want anything to do with a union that would be led by such an idiot.

It does make for some amusement = Prater, now magically, thought the Nic unfair...and, being the very Pontiff/Praetor-Prater of the vast, deep resources, and all powerfull International association that he was....simply perfomed as Pontius Prater, and actually did NOTHING about the "unfair" scenario .!!?? :blink: 🙄

Ah well...here we all are today.

 

[ableoneable]

It does make for some amusement = Prater, now magically, thought the Nic unfair...and, being the very Pontiff/Praetor-Prater of the vast, deep resources, and all powerfull International association that he was....simply perfomed as Pontius Prater, and actually did NOTHING about the "unfair" scenario .!!?? :blink: 🙄

Ah well...here we all are today.

You will have to go far and wide to find anyone on the west who will defend Prater.

 

[EastUS]

Well what do you know, we are brothers after all.

I too blew off WN, Delta and NW, though I don't regret the NW.

I also did not buy a house in San Diego because in 1997 because $230,000 seemed like a lot of money.
How stupid can you get?

"How stupid can you get?" For Calif real estate? = I got that totally beat for stupid. I had two rentals in The Peoples' Republik of Kalifornia, SFO Bay Area (once a fantastic place to live, but...etc) that were almost at the rent-pays-the-mortgage point..and sold out in the late 80's..resulting in a sacrificed 3/4+ mill over time on that pair, versus where the funds went.

PS: Ya' REALLY want "Stupid"? = Try making your first airline job Eastern....it was very good for awhile...again...who knew the future? 😉 The not-so-infallible rests his case....

Here we all are today folks...and we're going to have to eventually work things out.

 

[Piedmont1984]

That's rich! Whether the west cooperates or not the east will speak for them. Thus the tyranny of usapa. Guess what, guys, the west will never cooperate because we realize that we will never be represented fairly. The only choice we have is to do everything in our power to help usapa fail. I have been a west pilot for 10 years and have never seen such unity among the group. Your chances of accomplishing anything are slim to none.

I've been here 24 years and I have never seen such unity in the east. There have been plenty of predictions from the west concerning our chances of accomplishing anything. Does getting enough cards or winning the election ring a bell?

If your side will not engage, the process moves forward without you. There is no option C.

USAPA was created to replace ALPA - for many sound reasons. As of yet, USAPA has not performed one official act which could be construed as detrimental to the interests of the west.

Being born doesn't count.