Pilot seniority arbitration award is out

[PA18]

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Its not gonna be a pleasant travel season this summer to say the least....

We knew this was going to be an ugly summer, anyway.

But now, my God...

I spoke with a crew scheduler earlier today. According to her, "It" has started already, if you catch my drift.

 

[autofixer]

I am an unethical brain and if half of the pilot group was such we would not be in this situation. Spinless whimps.

I just checked, there are no 737 f/os available for tomorrow, period!

 

[BluePacific]

Yep. Sign me "No longer helpful"

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I would think at least you can expect a sour moral from the cockpit...

For a period of time you will see the full "Not my job" attitude.

The first officers will now be their for life, their career is virtually over. Its just a check from a job they no longer want, but cant leave as redilly as they would like.

Its not gonna be a pleasant travel season this summer to say the least....

 

[Busdrvr]

If he operated them separately I think the new a/c would go to the east as it has lower costs than the HP contract. Additionally any international growth would probably go to the east also as that is where the Intl flying is based and the east has an Intl division along with contract language for Intl flights - the west does not have that.

And how long do think it would take for the west to agree to be used as a whipsaw against you?

Simple question you must ask yourself. If on the day before the merger, your past CEO said "we're liquidating unless we merge, and if we merge with AWA, this is what the seniority list would look like"

What would you have chosen?

Be careful about thinking that ALPA merger policy is bad. you must consider the "unintended consequences". If you demand DOH in all cases, you will effectively end mergers, and ensure that if you're ever a troubled carrier, you WILL get liquidated. What pilot group at a strong carrier would ever agree to give up seats for guys from a dying on? (for clarity, Im not saying U was definately dying or that AWA was strong, I'm merely pointing out the future concequences of a change in ALPA policy)

 

[BoeingBoy]

Is this who I think it is?

Apparently so, and it sure reads like it.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

And how long do think it would take for the west to agree to be used as a whipsaw against you?

Simple question you must ask yourself. If on the day before the merger, your past CEO said "we're liquidating unless we merge, and if we merge with AWA, this is what the seniority list would look like"

What would you have chosen?

Be careful about thinking that ALPA merger policy is bad. you must consider the "unintended consequences". If you demand DOH in all cases, you will effectively end mergers, and ensure that if you're ever a troubled carrier, you WILL get liquidated. What pilot group at a strong carrier would ever agree to give up seats for guys from a dying on? (for clarity, Im not saying U was definately dying or that AWA was strong, I'm merely pointing out the future concequences of a change in ALPA policy)

There was just no way one could reconcile the East pilot seniority list with any airline. The problem was that every other major airline has captains with DOHs that would qualify for furlough at the East. It wasn't the merger strategy or who exactly was on the committee that led to this award. The problem was that they were arguing before pilots from two other major airlines; in this case a United and a Continental pilot. Both were probably looking at the DOH's and couldn't miss the fact that captains at their airlines would be on the street at East. Therefore, the only way to make their decision "fair" in the eyes of the East pilots would be to set a dangerous precedent for the rest of the industry. If there were 100 options available, then 99 would be unpalatable to the East. And the only reason it would be unpalatable is because of their totally screwed up seniority list. You could have put neutrals from any major airline and you'd wind up with the same unanimous decision. DOH, standing alone, was a nonstarter. The committee asked the East to move away from it and they refused. So what came out was essentially the West version. AWA didn't ask for this merger but now we are stuck with it. It would have been far better to just let U liquidate and take our chances alone. Afterall, we survived for more than two decades against Southwest. We could survive anything.

 

[Busdrvr]

Apparently so, and it sure reads like it.

Jim

Bet you're glad you retired!!! 😉

 

[autofixer]

I think the biggest beef we have is with attrition. We know DOH is not going to fly (It should be the standard, but it is not); however, we expected to get to reap the benifits of our East attrition. Now the West guys get to come in and get our attrition and then inherit the world in 5-10 years...certainly a windfall by any measure!

 

[Viper16]

You could have put neutrals from any major airline and you'd wind up with the same unanimous decision. DOH, standing alone, was a nonstarter. .

To start with it was not a unanimous decision. The CAL pilot neutral disagreed with putting recently recalled pilots with 18+ years longivity below a 2005 hire.

I believe the bulk of the east pilots never thought we would get DOH but such a one sided award where pilots lost 15-20 yrs seniority and the west pilots share the advantage of the east retirements is obviously a windfall for the west.

If there was some type of fence where the east pilots would have rights to the east attrition maybe it would have been more palatable, but to know that any hopes of upgrade are gone forever is a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[Busdrvr]

I think the biggest beef we have is with attrition. We know DOH is not going to fly (It should be the standard, but it is not); however, we expected to get to reap the benifits of our East attrition. Now the West guys get to come in and get our attrition and then inherit the world in 5-10 years...certainly a windfall by any measure!

Frankly, while I started out looking at this in concrete terms (guy on the property trumps furloughed guy), I must admit that I lean your direction WRT the demographics. While the AWA F/O's don't deserve to lose relative seniority in the short term to a guy just comming back from furlough, It also nonsense to take a furloughed guy who would have been a Cpt in 5 years and and now tell him that because of the merger, he now gets to wait 15. All in all, it looks like a windfall at East's expense.

Frankly, U made a huge stategic mistake by even suggesting DOH. (IMO)

 

[autofixer]

To start with it was not a unanimous decision. The CAL pilot neutral disagreed with putting recently recalled pilots with 18+ years longivity below a 2005 hire.

I believe the bulk of the east pilots never thought we would get DOH but such a one sided award where pilots lost 15-20 yrs seniority and the west pilots share the advantage of the east retirements is obviously a windfall for the west.

If there was some type of fence where the east pilots would have rights to the east attrition maybe it would have been more palatable, but to know that any hopes of upgrade are gone forever is a bitter pill to swallow.

Don't forget we gave the Westies our profit sharing too.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Don't forget we gave the Westies our profit sharing too.

Profit sharing was agreed to in the Transition Agreement.

Dork

 

[awausairtech]

Let me see if I have the Big Picture here? ALPA East vs ALPA West With a ALPA Arbitration Board and Two Neutral ALPA Captains Come up with this Award! So the Answer to this is stick it to the COMPANY because YOUR UNION (ALPA) made a Decision that one ALPA SIDE does not like.. COMMON SINSE goes out the door and the ME ME ME Pilot Group takes it out on the REST of the USAIR EMPLOYEE'S from other Unions/non-union groups. Common Sense! Get Under One Contract And FIX Your Mess That YOUR UNION(ALPA)DID!!! The Company has BEAT the rest of us up real bad, They don't need any help! Common Sense, Put this place out of business and YOU are at the Bottom Of The Seniority List at another Airline. What part of this is it I'm missing? :huh:

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I agree entirely.

 

[Elevation]

Asking for DOH was a major FU. The Arbitrator couldn't give it to you anyway due to ALPA merger guidance. They wasted all there time on a non starter issue, Why? because thats what the pilots wanted. AAA bet on green, the should have went with red or black when playing roulette.