Pilots for quality contract

AWA320

Veteran
May 6, 2007
1,522
508
Western hemisphere
Maybe this should have been your approach from the beginning instead of the land grab attempt! Many of us here are suspect of your new found sense of fair play since it wasn't there for the past two years.

The pilots are suppose to run the union not the other way around. To say now that your MEC was on a rogue mission unsupported by the majority is just not passing the smell test with us. What can and is believed by us is that your MEC told all of your pilots that they were going to be captains real soon and that they would be taking over the PHX and LAS so all of you PSA pilots, you are now going home! That can be believed based on what I witnessed first hand for the last two years.

I agree we all do need a better contract and we all deserve to be compensated for the hard work we perform, pilots and flight attendants alike!!! We are the ones who deal with the upset passangers and we are the fist contact when we encounter delays and other circumstances that piss people off!!

So how do we get there?? Well I can tell you that none of our crew are unwilling to sacrafice anything else in the name of this merger. We understand all that the east has been thru but none of that is our fault thus we should not even be asked to pay that price for you!! Every scenario that I have run impacts the west pilots in the negetive. The arbitrator saw this as well which is the main reason there were no fences put in place outside of the the widebody fence. I am really sorry for all that the east has had to deal with over the years but the west did not do this to any of you. Outside of pay and benefits I don't see any other way that doesn't severly hurt the west pilots.

Attack away....


Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:45:27 -0400
From: "Pilots For A Quality Contract" <[email protected]>
Subject: The question is this...
To: "Pilots For A Quality Contract" <[email protected]>

Fellow pilot,



Pilots For A Quality Contract has, as you know, remained neutral with regard to the seniority integration question, focusing instead on the battle for a quality contract for all US Airways pilots. To that end many West pilots have joined our ranks; we thank you for your support. Regretfully, the Nicolau decision threatens to undo with a stroke the hard work of many (from both the East and West) to create unity on this property so that we may face our true adversary side-by-side. (If you need a reminder of how far we have to go, Air Tran has a TA which includes a $161/hr. narrow-body rate, while from the Scott and Doug show we have a raft of proposed concessions along with a spiffy $160/hr. A340 offer.)



As you all know, Captain Prater and the Executive Council have directed the East and West pilots to redouble their efforts to find a consensual agreement, one that addresses the concerns of both sides and addresses “career protection and mutual successâ€. Since I am now addressing this issue I will tell you that I was never happy with the East’s stated approach to the seniority integration issue (and told my Reps this as well). Aside from allowing no ‘wiggle room’ whatsoever, the point and purpose of the East position was never clearly communicated to the West. Hence, it appeared (incorrectly) that the goal was to place the West pilot in some sort of subservient position, thereby failing to address the very real and justifiable concerns of career progression and expectations held by the West pilots (and by the East). I will tell you (as I did from the beginning when I began the mission of uniting the pilots in a common struggle for a quality contract) that not one East pilot, not one member of the East MEC, ever desired to take a thing from the West – I can state that unequivocally. Our only desire was to benefit from those things that we brought to the merger. Boy did our MEC & Merger Committee fail in their mission to communicate that at the table! Believing they were hamstrung with “Date of Hire†rather than the real desire of East pilots to merely have their career progression and expectations addressed (the very same concerns held by the West), they failed to communicate the true expectations of the East pilots, instead sending the Merger Committee off for what probably appeared to be a power grab. Again, that was not the true expectation of the line pilots – just one more example of the often dysfunctional relationship between an MEC and the pilots they are supposed to represent. (I imagine you have the same issues in the West.) Both before and after the Nicolau decision every single East pilot I polled (and I polled a lot of them) told me they anticipated losing 5-8 years seniority in the integration. What this means is that virtually every East pilot recognized that slotting would be required to address West career progression expectations.



In any case, here we are. Directed by Captain Prater and the Executive Council to find a consensual solution which addresses career protection, the question is “can we?†The underlying question quite candidly, directed at the former America West pilot, is “will you?†I will tell you that I have had extended discussions over the last week with contacts at ALPA National, and should we fail to arrive at a consensual solution, there is (quoting one of my contacts) “very real and very significant potential danger to both sides†should we just (once again) hand this over to a third party, be it the Executive Council or another arbitrator. Finally, should we fail to come together on this issue, the danger of the pilot groups falling into a permanent quagmire of infighting is also very real – something about which the Company is salivating. (As a demonstration of already increasing division, West responses and support for the PilotsForAQualityContract.org movement has nearly dried-up, and our respective MEC’s have already started bickering over who’s doing what in contract negotiations - it does not bode well for any of our futures.)



So, as one line pilot to another, one who (at one time or another) has sacrificed just like you, one who has alternately fought with ALPA and fought for ALPA just like you, the question is this:




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would you be willing to discuss a consensual solution that took into consideration pre-merger career progression expectations for both groups, and included protections for base, status, pay and advancement? It is envisioned that such an agreement would include:



1) Career base protection (i.e., West pilot can never be displaced from their pre-merger base by East pilot; East pilot cannot be displaced by West). Protection does not exist in Nicolau award.

2) Career status protection (i.e., West Captain can never be displaced out of status by East pilot & vice versa). Protection does not exist in Nicolau award.

3) Career base relative position protection (i.e., West pilots can never lose base or status relative position as a result of East pilot). Protection does not exist in Nicolau award.

4) List ordering based upon quantifiable pre-merger career expectations and expected career progression

5) A list which (to the absolute greatest degree possible, using every available means) does not take from any pilot pre-merger career progression and expectations, nor give to any pilot (if at another’s expense) anything beyond pre-merger career expectations and progression.

6) A list which shares equally the fruits of the new airline and our joint efforts

7) A list which, in light of old US Airways bankruptcy and now-public America West Operation “Zanzibar†(bankruptcy preparations coupled with a planned 15% downsize), disregards all hypothetical and speculative financial scenarios, and does not penalize nor reward either pilot group for transient financial conditions over which they had no control, and which may or may not have occurred in any case.



Although it is anticipated that such an agreement would be extremely complicated (likely including a variety of methodologies) so as to ensure adequate protections for all pilots during future bid closings; at the very least it most certainly would include slotting to accomplish the above guarantees.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Or, do you want to just stand on the sideline and let our MEC’s fight it out, reaching no conclusion, leaving it again in the hands of a third party, and likely dooming this pilot group to a decade and a half of infighting? (Please be clear that I am not insinuating that only the West has people standing on the sidelines, uninvolved but willing to complain; we have plenty of it on the East side as well.) Alternatively, will you stand next to East pilots to try and find a solution crafted not by dysfunctional MEC’s and Merger Committees, but instead by line pilots from both Coasts who simply want their very real career protection concerns addressed?



All of us, East and West, need to know your answer to the question above. To that end, I ask that 100% of you take a moment to reply. (In fact, it would be great if you would pass this around, both to alert others to the Pilots For A Quality Contract movement, and to include their thoughts and ideas on this subject as well.) Want to be long-winded? Great. Want to answer with a simple “no� Regretful but certainly your right to do so. Want to include your reasons? Please do so. Have other ideas? Please include them.



I implore each of you to consider your future here, along with that of your fellow pilots. Then I ask that you fully engage in the process, grass-roots or otherwise, to make that future happen.



I am sincerely looking forward to your replies and future support, as we work together for better working conditions for all.



Fraternally,











xxxxxxxxxxxxx

PHL 737

Pilots For A Quality Contract - The Time Is Now!

xxxxxxxxxxxx

http://PilotsForAQualityContract.org

mailto:p[email protected]

(in all correspondence please include name, base,

status, employee number, email address and

phone number for follow-up info)
 
"What can and is believed by us is that your MEC told all of your pilots that they were going to be captains real soon and that they would be taking over the PHX and LAS ..."

These guys have been waiting to be captains for nigh on twenty years....hardly real soon.

Still, the post is thought provoking. I always felt that a merger formula, based on longevity, but with strong protections and limitations, would have required the arbitrator to devise a complex formulation; one with a great deal of "fine print". Instead he came up with something that was far too simplistic. He fell far short of addressing the complexities of putting together two such diverse pilot groups.

OTOH, despite what you and others out west have been saying about how the list is set in stone, I prefer to scuttle it and start from scratch, and that process has not yet played out.
 
"What can and is believed by us is that your MEC told all of your pilots that they were going to be captains real soon and that they would be taking over the PHX and LAS ..."

These guys have been waiting to be captains for nigh on twenty years....hardly real soon.

Still, the post is thought provoking. I always felt that a merger formula, based on longevity, but with strong protections and limitations, would have required the arbitrator to devise a complex formulation; one with a great deal of "fine print". Instead he came up with something that was far too simplistic. He fell far short of addressing the complexities of putting together two such diverse pilot groups.

OTOH, despite what you and others out west have been saying about how the list is set in stone, I prefer to scuttle it and start from scratch, and that process has not yet played out.

Always the intelligent response Piedmont, thank you. So how many times do we scuttle it and start from scratch?? I for one an not interested in paying twice for the same case. I do see some real problems for the national union on an even larger scale. The national union has no mechanism to do what they have done thus far. I see and feel a crippling law suit in the union's future that penalizes all the other carrires of this association. There is simply no way for the national union to pay a judgement to 1900 pilots in a DFR case so what happens? Well ALPA goes bankrupt as a result but what's worse is the destablizing effect this has on not only ALPA but all labor unions.

Thanks again Piedmont
 
AWA320:

You really do need to get a life. Or treatment for your problem.

It's all consuming with you and we have gotten (many times over) your stance and opinions on the Nicolau Award.

Why don't you take a sabbatical from USAviation until ALPA National acts (or not). Then you can either gloat your heart out or go on defense. Kapiche?
 
AWA320:

You really do need to get a life. Or treatment for your problem.

It's all consuming with you and we have gotten (many times over) your stance and opinions on the Nicolau Award.

Why don't you take a sabbatical from USAviation until ALPA National acts (or not). Then you can either gloat your heart out or go on defense. Kapiche?


First of all it's not about gloating and second, with this thread I am not really interested in a arguement or fight. Now if you have something intelligent to add to this particular discussion then by all means add it. For reasons which I will not disclose on this forum my involvment in this is far more than you think!!

Now I am interested if you have anything worth while in which to add to this debate, but it is out of line for you or anyone else to ask me not to state an opinion, get it??
 
I got it the first time, the second time, the third time..........
 
I got it the first time, the second time, the third time..........

Then why am I a (west pilot)your only victim?? I don't see that same sentimate aimed at any of you east brethren!!

Now again please don't hijack the thread. If you have an opinion on the subject then lets hear it and please support your view.

Thank you.
 
AWA320:

You really do need to get a life. Or treatment for your problem.

It's all consuming with you and we have gotten (many times over) your stance and opinions on the Nicolau Award.

Why don't you take a sabbatical from USAviation until ALPA National acts (or not). Then you can either gloat your heart out or go on defense. Kapiche?


Who is AWA320? (so where did that ignore feature go to. We used to be able to hit ignore and blank out any user we wanted. Those were the days. :lol: )
 
The pilots are suppose to run the union not the other way around. To say now that your MEC was on a rogue mission unsupported by the majority is just not passing the smell test with us. What can and is believed by us is that your MEC told all of your pilots that they were going to be captains real soon and that they would be taking over the PHX and LAS so all of you PSA pilots, you are now going home! That can be believed based on what I witnessed first hand for the last two years.


Attack away....


Smelling or not, that is how I see it came down. I RARELY talked to a pilot that was breathing fire about DOH...mostly junior F/Os. Who can blame them though. Sitting in the right seat for most of their 20 years, I think they really expected an opportunity here. I never saw it that way and was very vocal about it. You can't put furloughed pilots senior to flying Captains. That is what DOH does. I remember seeing the slides at a Merger Committee presentation. DOH and straight ratios were equally ugly for the other group.

All this being said...so what. It won't fix this mess. Somebody a whole lot smarter than me is going to have to be very creative to ever get these two groups together again. Most guys I'm talking to now are resigning themselves to living under LOA 93 for the rest of their careers or waiting until the dust settles and demanding parity. If they don't get it, then ugly won't begin to describe how things are going to get. I've said this before. This thing is a trainwreck, and we're on it.


Good luck to all of us. Whole thing is getting NUTS!

A320 Driver B)
 
Here's what we're up against:

East Pilot: "I never thought we would lose this bad. Now that we have, we'll do ANYTHING to get it changed."

West Pilot: "I never thought we would win this big. Now that we have, we'll do ANYTHING to keep it.

A320 Driver B)


Winner: Management
 
Then why am I a (west pilot)your only victim?? I don't see that same sentimate aimed at any of you east brethren!!

Now again please don't hijack the thread. If you have an opinion on the subject then lets hear it and please support your view.

Thank you.

Please don't become another USA320Pilot.

My opinion on the subject:

The award does not comply with ALPA Merger Policy.
Captain Prater and the EVP's should not allow it to stand.
 
The arbitrator and two neutrals among your peers thought otherwise. This is obviously very hard for the east to accept, but the process was agreed to and strictly followed from beginning to end by both parties.

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. “-- Marcus Aurelius

Please don't become another USA320Pilot.

My opinion on the subject:

The award does not comply with ALPA Merger Policy.
Captain Prater and the EVP's should not allow it to stand.
 
I strongly believe there will be no new joint pilot contract until the seniority integration problem is resolved.

The US Airways MEC will not agree to a TA and even if they did, I believe the majority of the East pilots would vote it down to prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented.

Regards,

USA320Pilot