Pilots propose a 30.5% pay raise on May 1, 2008

[Bear96]

In another industry, if there was a mass exodus, they could probably replace those workers easily and train them to do the job. In the pilot industry, yes you may be able to replace them fairly quickly, but training is expensive, and finding the caliber of pilots we have gone for in the past may be difficult. How will that change the public's perception of safety in the air?

Sorry, but where is this mass exodus of pilots you are speaking of that need to be replaced quickly?

Unfortunately it bodes badly for the future of the pilot profession as standards will be lowered. It may be eventually reduced to the status of a bus driver, do you really want to fly with pilots like that?

Pilots like what?

Hate to break it to you, but domestic U.S. air travel already US bus travel.

You are correct, if salaries (and actually I was referring to all front-line airline workers, not just pilots, but we'll go with this) get too low to attract sufficient numbers of qualified people, of course wages will go up. However, I don't see that happening anytime soon, especially with pilots. It is still a decent living compared to just about any other profession out there, and in any case, there will always be a long line of people who have been bitten by the aviation bug and are willing to become trained and qualified to fly for a major airline . I don't see that changing in my lifetime. I don't foresee a drop off in safety or pilot quality, and in fact increases in technology will likely only make things continuously safer overall as time goes on.

 

[AAStew]

Sorry, but where is this mass exodus of pilots you are speaking of that need to be replaced quickly?
Pilots like what?

Read the previous posts b4 commenting, that was exactly the point, there has been no mass exodus, thank God.
Decent living, maybe. MOst mechanics went to school,for two years and got hired. Our pilots went through college, a few through the military academies, then pilot training school, then most served an additional 7 years if not more. That equals out to about 11-12 years (minimum) of training before they came on to AA at B-scale for about 32K a year. These were best of the best. Compare them to others putting in that much time, MD, JD, DVM, damn even a plumber makes more than a pilot does in my area, DC. I think it is time to compare apples to apples. These people bet on their futures, they took little at the beginning in exchange for their reward at the end of their careers.
Hey pilots, I have defended you enough! Where are you on here? I know you feel you don't have to defend yourselves, but educating others would help your situation immensely.

 

[ILS2MINIMUMS]

Hey pilots, I have defended you enough! Where are you on here? I know you feel you don't have to defend yourselves, but educating others would help your situation immensely.

I have read your comments about pilots, and I must say thank you. I can honestly say that until now, I've NEVER read or heard a single flight attendant go to bat for a pilot. I, for one, certainly appreciate the sentiment.

As for defending ourselves and the attempt to regain our lost income, it's generally pointless, as you've recently seen in your defense of us. A lot of us have simply given up attempting to justify our salary, because we're nearly always met with complaints and snide comments about it. As an example, you stuck your neck out for us and got your head chopped off.

Our unions still live in the past. They think that public sympathy is going to result in a better contract. It doesn't. They think you can try to justify your modest income to someone who makes 2/3 of what you make. You can't. The only way to get back what we've lost is to withhold our services. That way, and only that way, our value is displayed to the only people who really need to know it, the AMR BOD and shareholders.

AAStew, You are one of the very few people who doesn't seem to get wrapped around the axle about our pay. You GET IT! You see the background, the responsibility, the risks, and the justification. Thank you.

Right now our union is having national elections. If the incumbents are re-elected, this contract will go nowhere and we'll capitulate. If new leadership comes to APA, it is my opinion that the giving and concessions are over. We will no longer stand by and watch management reward themselves with hundreds of millions of our dollars while we continue to get by on 1991 wages (that's where we'll be in May 2008, back at 1991 wages. The 30.5% they ballyhoo only brings our pay up to 1997 scales). When your contract comes due, you'll be taking the same type of heat we are now. And so will the rampers. You'll have my support, I promise.

Again, Thank You.

 

[ArtTang]

I have read your comments about pilots, and I must say thank you. I can honestly say that until now, I've NEVER read or heard a single flight attendant go to bat for a pilot. I, for one, certainly appreciate the sentiment.

As for defending ourselves and the attempt to regain our lost income, it's generally pointless, as you've recently seen in your defense of us. A lot of us have simply given up attempting to justify our salary, because we're nearly always met with complaints and snide comments about it. As an example, you stuck your neck out for us and got your head chopped off.

Our unions still live in the past. They think that public sympathy is going to result in a better contract. It doesn't. They think you can try to justify your modest income to someone who makes 2/3 of what you make. You can't. The only way to get back what we've lost is to withhold our services. That way, and only that way, our value is displayed to the only people who really need to know it, the AMR BOD and shareholders.

AAStew, You are one of the very few people who doesn't seem to get wrapped around the axle about our pay. You GET IT! You see the background, the responsibility, the risks, and the justification. Thank you.

Right now our union is having national elections. If the incumbents are re-elected, this contract will go nowhere and we'll capitulate. If new leadership comes to APA, it is my opinion that the giving and concessions are over. We will no longer stand by and watch management reward themselves with hundreds of millions of our dollars while we continue to get by on 1991 wages (that's where we'll be in May 2008, back at 1991 wages. The 30.5% they ballyhoo only brings our pay up to 1997 scales). When your contract comes due, you'll be taking the same type of heat we are now. And so will the rampers. You'll have my support, I promise.

Again, Thank You.

As a flight attendant, I have also supported the pilots in their efforts to obtain a leading contract. I have nothing against such efforts. As I stated in an earlier post on this same thread, our common "enemy" is not the other unions on property (as much as management loves for us to believe so). When we allow ourselves to become divided we merely open the door for the company to conquer us all.

All three unions will be negotiating new contracts concurrently; we must not allow ourselves to fall into a weakened state of divisiveness. We have to remain focused.

Peace,
Art Tang
IMA

 

[Bear96]

Read the previous posts b4 commenting, that was exactly the point, there has been no mass exodus, thank God.

OK, breathe.

I think you are confused. I totally understand what it takes to become a pilot at a major airline. (I don't buy that it's harder than some of the other professions you listed -- for example, a JD takes at least seven years of additional full-time education after high school, and even then unless you went to a top school or graduated very high in your class, job prospects for most new JDs with no experience are probably a lot worse than you seem to think, with many indeed facing first jobs in the $30Ks-$40Ks range -- but that's another thread). That is irrelevant to why there were pay cuts in the airline industry, which is the topic of this thread.

I am not sure why you are trying to make it look like I am bashing pilots. I wasn't even talking about only pilots when I made the post about the 30% pay cuts. I was making a very simple observation about the labor market, in ANY profession.

Let's review. Someone asked how many other employees had had their pay cut 30+% lately. I said not many, because other employees wouldn't tolerate that, and would leave. But apparently, in the airline industry (NOTE: I am not referring only to pilots, but rather to any airline employee complaining about massive pay cuts), people stay despite 30% paycuts. Therefore there is no incentive to raise pay.

If enough airline people would leave so that there aren't sufficient qualified people to do the jobs, pay would go up to attract sufficient numbers of qualified people.

That is all.

 

[jimntx]

Re: Having to constantly apologize to passengers...

Can I have an AMEN from the choir? And, it's not just the catering problems or the delays. I work F/C a lot. How about having to apologize to the EP about his/her broken tray table? Then when you call the cockpit to have it put in the maintenance log, you find out that the broken tray table has been in the log for over a week! Or you get on an a/c that has been sitting overnight at your hub and find the paper towel dispensers held together by blue catering tape--an indication that the flight attendants (from a previous day) were trying to keep the friggin thing in one piece so all the paper towels didn't end up in the sink.

AASTEW, I do not think cockpit crew are overpaid, either. However, you do have to put their salaries in perspective with the rest of the world. You are not going to find much sympathy among the general public for the plight of the pilots. When you are working 50-60 hours a week at a desk and have just been told for the 3rd year in a row that there is no money for merit raises just COLA increases (as just happened to a friend of mine), and you are making only about $45k/year after 15 years on the job, it's hard to see the problem with a pilot who is complaining that his salary was cut from $200,000/yr to $150,000/yr; so, he/she may have to give up the ski condo in Colorado.

And, pilots don't get your knickers in a twist and start yelling at me about the responsibilities your job entails. It doesn't matter as far as public perception. Some of you on this board are probably too young to remember the PATCO strike where Reagan fired every one of the striking Air Traffic Controllers and replaced them with new hires. My wife and I lived right on the edge of IAH and had several friends who were ATCs who lost their jobs by striking. One of them ranted and raved for over a year afterwards about the lack of support from the public.

He, according to his mother, barely got out of high school. He was making about $40,000/year at the time he was fired. My wife and I--both college graduates--together were making less than $35,000/year and thought we were doing well in life. We were buying a home, had 2 cars, and went on nice vacations. My sister (Master's degree) was making less than $1000/mo as a school teacher in a good school system.

The average working stiff in those days could not relate to anyone making $40,000/year who by law got a mandatory 1 hour break after 1 hour of working--i.e., they only worked 4 hours out of every 8 hours on the job. Now, you couldn't pay me enough to be an Air Traffic Controller. The pressure must be incredible--particularly during bad weather events. But most people are going to look at the situation as the guy was being paid $40k/year for a part-time job. What's his problem?

Same perception with the pilots. And, it also doesn't matter that the executives with AA just got those unconscionable bonusses. Joe Q. Public's bosses are also getting outrageous bonusses just for doing their jobs. He doesn't see the difference.

 

[AAStew]

AASTEW, I do not think cockpit crew are overpaid, either. However, you do have to put their salaries in perspective with the rest of the world. You are not going to find much sympathy among the general public for the plight of the pilots. When you are working 50-60 hours a week at a desk and have just been told for the 3rd year in a row that there is no money for merit raises just COLA increases (as just happened to a friend of mine), and you are making only about $45k/year after 15 years on the job, it's hard to see the problem with a pilot who is complaining that his salary was cut from $200,000/yr to $150,000/yr; so, he/she may have to give up the ski condo in Colorado.

But most people are going to look at the situation as the guy was being paid $40k/year for a part-time job. What's his problem?

Same perception with the pilots. And, it also doesn't matter that the executives with AA just got those unconscionable bonusses. Joe Q. Public's bosses are also getting outrageous bonusses just for doing their jobs. He doesn't see the difference.

Jim, you are right. The average public will not understand. They also do not understand that there were sacrifices in their earlier careers, in order to reap the benefits later. That is exactly why I said they need to educate folks, and not necessarily the public, but their fellow coworkers who can only see that they are making 2 to 3 times what they are. No, they will never win over Joe Q Public, but anyone with similar education/training, can understand where they are coming from.

BTW the majority of our pilots are still right seat. Their salaries do not come close to what you quoted above. Most are not at 6 figures. Do a google search and check for yourself. I would also venture that most of our our Captains are nowhere near that high range either but just about 150,000 for w/b.

 

[Mach85ER]

Over the years as a pilot, I've consistently averaged around 60 hours a week away from home excluding the drive from home.

As for educating "John Q. Public", I really could care less. 99% of them will never be in a positon where the decision making "buck" absolutely stops with them in terms of lives and millions (or even a Billion) of dollars in potential damage. Most decisions in todays world are "bumped up" to a higher level, a committee, consultants, tech reps or contracted out.

There are also plenty of studies out there covering the actual productivity of someone working in the typical office. Subtract everything from websurfing, to getting coffee, to looking for paperclips, and the 50 hours of actual work drops real fast.

 

[Skymess]

As a flight attendant, I have also supported the pilots in their efforts to obtain a leading contract. I have nothing against such efforts. As I stated in an earlier post on this same thread, our common "enemy" is not the other unions on property (as much as management loves for us to believe so). When we allow ourselves to become divided we merely open the door for the company to conquer us all.

All three unions will be negotiating new contracts concurrently; we must not allow ourselves to fall into a weakened state of divisiveness. We have to remain focused.

Peace,
Art Tang
IMA

I totally agree Art. I have no bone to pick with any other work group. I don't envy pilots their pay, their food, or their responsibility.

The time for the unions to help the company divide us should be over.

As the company starts to prosper once again we should all get back what we sacrificed.

Jim, you are right. The average public will not understand. They also do not understand that there were sacrifices in their earlier careers, in order to reap the benefits later. That is exactly why I said they need to educate folks, and not necessarily the public, but their fellow coworkers who can only see that they are making 2 to 3 times what they are. No, they will never win over Joe Q Public, but anyone with similar education/training, can understand where they are coming from.

BTW the majority of our pilots are still right seat. Their salaries do not come close to what you quoted above. Most are not at 6 figures. Do a google search and check for yourself. I would also venture that most of our our Captains are nowhere near that high range either but just about 150,000 for w/b.

I think your previous post kind of said it all AA Stew.

Does the average public want a well trained pilot or a half a**ed pilot sitting in the cockpit? For myself I would rather the former.

It all depends what they are willing to pay. Future career decisions and air safety are kind of riding on it. They will always get people who want to work in the industry, they just might not get the best people who SHOULD work in the industry.

I have had my bad pilot days but I do know that I respect 99% of the people we have flying us around because they are skilled pilots.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

...So many maintenance items are repeatedly deferred that flight attendants (and passengers) see the exact same broken seat flying around the system for weeks on end...

I just had to highlight this statement. Just maybe this 30% increase the pilots are asking for is actually hazardous duty pay?

I would also like to add that the Asian carriers blow the doors off their US counterparts as far as service goes. Maybe someone should put a reality show together where a US/FA trades places with an Asian/FA. I put my money on the Asian/Fa holding their own while the US/FA flops out.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

ALL RIGHT !!!! ................Who FORGOT to put out the SCAB/MAGGOT repellent ???????????

Because I detect a FILTHY SMELL on this topic/board.

We can NEVER be TOO cautious, because INFECTIOUS BACTERIA can strike at ANY time !!!!!!!!!

PLEASE...all of us, lets be MORE careful...OK ?

(Dear GOD, what an ODOR) :down: :blink: :down: !!!!!


NH/BB's

 

[Mach85ER]

I would also like to add that the Asian carriers blow the doors off their US counterparts as far as service goes. Maybe someone should put a reality show together where a US/FA trades places with an Asian/FA. I put my money on the Asian/Fa holding their own while the US/FA flops out.

Okay A.H.,

Do you ever wonder at the number of US Flight Attendants that have had close family members killed in the service of their country in order to protect most of those corrupt Asian countries which has made their airline business models possible?

Golf-Foxtrot-Yankee

 

[kirkpatrick]

I put my money on the Asian/Fa holding their own while the US/FA flops out.

Spacious seating, tray tables and other hardware that is kept in a better state of repair is not a FA function. Give me eyeshades and amenity kits to pass out in coach and I'll pass them. Give me good food to serve and I'll serve it. Give me large galley areas and one FA per 20 pax and I'll give you a nice, unhurried gracious meal service.

The fact is, Asian carriers hire young women for their looks, pay them dirt and kick them out the door when they're over the hill at thirty or so. By flying them, you're supporting labor practices you'd never tolerate in your own country.

MK

 

[Vortilon]

I just had to highlight this statement. Just maybe this 30% increase the pilots are asking for is actually hazardous duty pay?

I would also like to add that the Asian carriers blow the doors off their US counterparts as far as service goes. Maybe someone should put a reality show together where a US/FA trades places with an Asian/FA. I put my money on the Asian/Fa holding their own while the US/FA flops out.

PTO you are such a putz....

Spare us your ill informed insight! <_<

 

[Nor'Easta]

I just had to highlight this statement. Just maybe this 30% increase the pilots are asking for is actually hazardous duty pay?

I would also like to add that the Asian carriers blow the doors off their US counterparts as far as service goes. Maybe someone should put a reality show together where a US/FA trades places with an Asian/FA. I put my money on the Asian/Fa holding their own while the US/FA flops out.

Hey it's the SCAB!

Do you even know what an airplane is?