Profit Sharing.

[ktflyhome]

El Gato: I don't know what you do. I don't Care. I don't know how old you are, it matters Not. But I will go on the Band wagon about the Flight Attendants. Granted there are many, many F/A's at U who are topped out. Yet cannot afford to retire. Why.? Many started at age 21 and with even 35 years that only makes them 56 at best. Social Security does not kick in until 62. We have no 40lK match of any sort. What we pay in is what we get. Further more there is a Social Securtity Offset in our contracts. Say we retire at 55 and collect Pension which Ain't much. When we reach 65 and can collect SS our Pension is offset by our SS. Get it.? Many of the Senior Guys and Gals would love to retire. They Cannot Afford to.

Anyway, what is so wrong with anyone looking at their job as a Career. Don't Lawyers, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Coaches, Bankers, and many others look at their job as a Career. Something that they have dedicated their lives to. What the Hell is wrong with that. That is why we raise kids, send them to college or vocational schools to give them the tools to make a living and have a career in their lifetime. That is what LIFE is all about.

And another thing, F/A training at USAirways is 6 weeks. Get your facts straight.Let me tell you another thing, I personally have flown with alot of these Senior people who have really seen it all. Really been through it all, they are class acts by far. They are No Monkeys!!!!!

Would I be better off if they were gone. Probably. But Maybe Not. They are the foundations of this business. All of the Senior people who have dedicated their Life's work to this Company and to this Industry.

Who are you or I to sit back and say they have no value to this company and are only sucking it dry. Would you say that about your own parents who worked their entire lives within a company to provide for you??? Think about that.

 

[mweiss]

Let's assume that Dave gets everything he wants and mainline unit costs come down to the 6 cent area, or about 7.5 cents including fuel - WN's costs. Because it can be done - it just won't be pleasant for any employee here. What then?

Hey, Jim,

You're right as it pertains to US Airways. But that's just bad management. Let's look at the broader picture for a moment.

On a broader scale, El Gato is on the money. As a rule of thumb, a job that can have a reduction in labor expenses in exchange for an increase in capital expenditure is ripe for reengineering.

Want to know one of the tricks AS used to reduce their GA labor expenses? They implemented a GUI front-end to their legacy text-based system. Now, the most common functions can be taught in a matter of hours. Over time, more and more of the text-based stuff is being GUIed up. The upshot? Less training means the GA is more easily replaced, which reduces the maximum contribution gain over time.

There will always be specialized jobs that have a higher equilibrium point, such as pilots and mechanics. For those folks, they can get on their knees and give thanks for the WN model of many small airplanes, because that means more jobs for all of them. Imagine what would have happened had the successful WN model been flying a single 747 between each city pair every day (I know it's absurd, but run with me a little with this one). Far fewer airplanes, far fewer pilots and mechanics.

The bottom line is that there are many in the industry who have reached a point of having a sense of entitlement. On an industry-wide basis, that attitude is poisonous to the employer. The airlines that succeed in the next decade are those that successfully manage the employees' expectations, just as they manage their customers' expectations. Thus far, the leader in these criteria is WN.

 

[mweiss]

...what is so wrong with anyone looking at their job as a Career.

Absolutely nothing. But then expectations must be set accordingly. Some jobs are just not cut out for making a long-term living (i.e. a career) out of. There's nothing wrong with deciding to do that job for the remainder of your days, but it's somewhat disingenuous to then complain that the job doesn't pay career wages.

Don't Lawyers, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Coaches, Bankers, and many others look at their job as a Career. Something that they have dedicated their lives to.

Look at that list carefully. Every one of those jobs requires extensive training. We're not talking about six weeks here. We're talking about years and in some cases decades of investment. Then after all of that training, these people don't reach the pinnacles of their careers for another couple of decades. That is the hallmark of what defines the difference between a job and a career. And that's why those fields pay the commensurate wages.

 

[BoeingBoy]

El Gato,

When I said it won't be pretty, your list barely scratches the surface. I was talking about everyone being at Express wages and benefits PLUS the things you mentioned.

You imply that there will no longer be an express component of US Air - it will be only mainline. That seems to be in variance with Dave's message. Whether those RJ's (including the 170's which will have higher unit costs too) are operated within the corparate "family" or only by the Mesa's and the like, the effect on system unit costs will be the same. Funny thing about unit costs - it doesn't matter whose name is on the "title" to the airplane, it only matters to the one paying for those "units". So as long as those airplanes are operating as US Air Express, the unit cost of operating them belongs to US Air.

Jim

 

[El Gato]

El Gato, next time your flt xld let the kisok take care of you.What is your career?If you think working for a airline is where the money is at,why are you here?Sounds to me like you can't find a career.Had a good job at UPS,what happen,now you work for a airline in pit.

(The Southwest method of addressing this).

"Next time my flight cancels, I am not going to be upset. I only paid $69.00 for the ticket, so why would I, or should I have the right to blow up at some poor agent? You charge me a square fare, I will give you my courtesy and respect."

(Now let's do this the USAirways way - get some of that "cool Pittsburgh hospitality!)

"You cheating punks. First you charge me $700.00 for a lousy walk up ticket for a 300 mile flight that I could have driven and saved on. Then you cancel. And to top things off, you stand there like a zombie in your droll "funeral home directors" outfit and have the nerve to tell ME that I should be calm and placid?...I JUST PAID $700.00 to fund your stinking overpaid butt, and you treat me like I have NO right to be angry? I will never fly your company again!!!!"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a career. I have a job that I love and am well paid from and very happy to have. I come to work every day with the spirit in me to meet the challenges that will face me, and I do not want to complain about it. Maybe I won't be doing this forever(Especially if you folks "kill the company"). But I can go on, and in fact I have been very proactive in the last few months to secure a future job, since my faith in the future of US Airways is tainted by reading and hearing what the "Concessions stand is closed" crowd is saying. I am not locked in to things as you may be, so I can get on with life. Do you remember the steel mills that once puncuated the Pittsburgh area? Do you remember when cars, and televisions sets, and clothes were made in the US? Do YOU know why they no longer are?

Yup, my friend. Keep dreaming that you mean something in life, dreaming of being rhe "worlds highest paid agent". You will soon hear the sounds of inevitabliity, as jobs are lost, homes are lost, families break up, former workers become winos, and you get the sublime pleasure of being a welfare king, liveing off the excerable bounty of those who DO work and pay your way.

Go on. Kill it. I can't wait to see your future after US is gone<smirk>.

 

[BoeingBoy]

mweiss,

Automation and the like is fine - but aviation is still a labor intensive business. Even WN's biggest cost component is labor. Likewise JBLU. In my original response to El Gato, I assumed significant labor concessions - after all, Dave wants a 20% reduction in labor wages, 14% in productivity increases, and 9% in benefit reductions. A sense of "entitlement" was not a part of my reasoning.

My point was that even with all that, we will still have significantly higher unit costs than WN - unless there is no Express component at all.

Jim

 

[mweiss]

I can't wait to see your future after US is gone<smirk>.

Hey, now. There's no place for schadenfreude here. :down:

 

[Fly]

What is the ONE reason EVERYONE talks about what they like about the airline??? SERVICE!!!! When you complain about US, AA, UA, NW or any other airline you complain because the flight attendants are not smiling, getting old, are old, are past old, etc. Therefore, these "monkeys" are pretty dang important to you, huh? When someone talks about the great flight they had, do they mention the wonderful res agent who put together the great itinerary?....how well the ramper shucked the bag into the hole?....NOPE...they talk about the service (the flight attendants) This is SERIOUSLY evident by how many say they had such a great "service" on WN or JB........huh?!?............they don't have a service....but they DO have pleasant flight attendants. Therefore, the flight attendants ARE more than monkeys. In fact, flight attendants can bring your customers in and KEEP them. Pretty darn important stuff.

 

[El Gato]

mweiss,

Automation and the like is fine - but aviation is still a labor intensive business. Even WN's biggest cost component is labor. Likewise JBLU. In my original response to El Gato, I assumed significant labor concessions - after all, Dave wants a 20% reduction in labor wages, 14% in productivity increases, and 9% in benefit reductions. A sense of "entitlement" was not a part of my reasoning.

My point was that even with all that, we will still have significantly higher unit costs than WN - unless there is no Express component at all.

Jim

IMO, the selling of all wholly owned express carriers to MESA is not an IF, but a WHEN. You can't make money when having them under your tent.

I believe it's probably going to be 25% wage reductions, 30% productivity increase, and 0% benefit give backs. Just my opinion.

One more thing to ponder. WN has a MUCH larger fleet and city pair number than we do. They can afford to do much more in pay, expansion, and other things than we can. Let's not pretend that WN is "just a LCC" They are far bigger in size than US. They are a Major carrier, even though they don't fly to Europe and Carribean.

 

[tadjr]

If you are expecting an apology, you will be waiting till hell freezes over.

CWA will say whatever they can to pinch an extra dollar out of the union dues andmake themselves look good, look tough - "We care about you!".

If you think that being a ticket agent is a career, well I feel sorry for you. And I feel sorry for the company that has you. You are essentially a monkey typing into a computer terminal, doing repetitious tasks and trying to make it into something it isn't. Don't believe me? You may have noticed that you are being replaced lately by the kiosks. Yes, a machine is doing your job now - and a very good one too. The kiosk also doesn't whine or complain or say things like "Duh, I want to be a ticket agent for the rest of my life". It is a temp job, the rampers and f/as and ticket agents. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

Ever hear of UPS? Ask yourself this, how does UPS keep the labor costs down? The answer is that for their shipping facilities and processing centers they hire part timers and temporary full timers. College boys work there to help pay off their tuition. I should know - I did it. I never expected, or HOPED that it would be a lifelong profession. What cretin wants to be operating a computer for customers, or throwing boxes forever? Oh, I forgot....YOU DO!

You just keep dreaming. Don't worry, you soon will be unemployed, and bitterly screaming "I want a job!" even though you HAD one that you murdered.

Lets try this one more time without the name calling please? Read my post carefully and then your response.
and I'll take two apologies whenever you're ready.

*Just curious how long you think an agent or flight attendant should work in that chosen profession? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? Why do you think it should be a stepping stone instead of a lifelong career? Some of us actually like working for the airlines and chose to make a career of it because its what we want to do. Should I quit and go get a desk job in a cubical somewhere because my time is up here? Please explain your reasoning to me in more detail.

I'd also love to hear exactly how long you might have been with an airline if you were to be working for one and what "job" you might have chosen to temporarily perform. Would sure put a lot of perspective into your view of the airline business. *

1) You're going to dispute the CWA numbers vs what some WN agents told you? Maybe you'd like to call WN to verify the topout numbers again? Just because the guy told you he was making $14 an hour doesnt mean he was topped out. I have yet to see anything from the company disputing the numbers the CWA provided. Cant admit when your proven incorrect and apologize accordingly?

2) I dont need your pity, thanks. When I started 19 years ago, being an airline agent was a career job. I cant help it they changed the rules in the middle of my chosen profession. Kind of late for me to go back and start over again to make a different choice. If I were just starting out or only had a couple of years, I might agree with your assertion that this job (in its current form) is not something that I would recommend as a lifetime choice, but it was mine and I am happy doing it. I intend to stay with it until it ends, then I will find something else. I really dont care what you think about my personal career choice, but thanks for the concern.

3) Where in my post did I say I would be screaming because I murdered my job? You dont know how I will vote this time so why are you assuming that?

4) You didnt answer a couple of my questions. Still waiting for a response that DOESNT involve name calling and slams if you can manage that. If not, dont bother responding.

 

[El Gato]

What is the ONE reason EVERYONE talks about what they like about the airline??? SERVICE!!!! When you complain about US, AA, UA, NW or any other airline you complain because the flight attendants are not smiling, getting old, are old, are past old, etc. Therefore, these "monkeys" are pretty dang important to you, huh? When someone talks about the great flight they had, do they mention the wonderful res agent who put together the great itinerary?....how well the ramper shucked the bag into the hole?....NOPE...they talk about the service (the flight attendants) This is SERIOUSLY evident by how many say they had such a great "service" on WN or JB........huh?!?............they don't have a service....but they DO have pleasant flight attendants. Therefore, the flight attendants ARE more than monkeys. In fact, flight attendants can bring your customers in and KEEP them. Pretty darn important stuff.

Fly,
Sorry if I gave the impression that flight attendants are monkeys. Didn't mean to imply that they are, although we have a few I have seen that do closely resemble monkeys.<evil-hellbound-smirk>

Yes, F/A's are important. So is the waitress over at the local Eat and Park serving me my morning coffee. So is the girl doing friction dances over at bare elegance. But yet THESE girls do not get the $20/hr rate. If they want to make money, my god they have to work for it. Think of it this way, if I took some bimbo from the local strip bar and put her in a cute pink rubber dress with pom-pom shoes, and told her to serve drinks to passengers, do you think people would come to like us? Maybe not the females in the crowd, but it sure as hell would get the businessman's attention. And should she be paid according to this "skill"? You bet.

And WHY on earth do you say WN and B6 are "different" in product from US? A drink is a drink, a bag of treats is a bag of treats, a seat is a seat. Yes we have a few bells and whistles, but in fact B6 has more! And for a cheaper price! Guess who is going to win the customer's heart and money?

We have to get off the high horse of "well, we are superior to the others". You are not. You are just another airline, flying just another planes and giving just another service. Change that, and maybe you can say things are different.

 

[mweiss]

Yes, F/A's are important. So is the waitress over at the local Eat and Park serving me my morning coffee. So is the girl doing friction dances over at bare elegance. But yet THESE girls do not get the $20/hr rate.

*Heh* another Pittsburgher. I think the Bare Elegance employee is netting more than $20/hr, but your point (however insensitive) is valid.

 

[Fly]

If that is the case.....why isn't Hooter's Airline the most profitable airline running? The fact is that you implied that flight attendants should only be there for the short term and should make the pay of a waitress or a stripper (both are making more than flight attendants). How long do you believe they should stay? Why would they want to leave? Aren't there laws against age discrimination? Why does it matter to you how old they are......if their only job is to fling some packages of peanuts at people, what difference does it make?

Seems to me that it's fun for you to cut down the flight attendants for some sick reason. I'm sorry that you find it unfair that flight attendants get a fun (ok, not anymore, but it used to be) job based mostly on the fact that they are better looking then the average person. Or are you upset that you had to study hard to get your job and we just had to walk in looking like we do?

 

[El Gato]

*Heh* another Pittsburgher. I think the Bare Elegance employee is netting more than $20/hr, but your point (however insensitive) is valid.

Yeah, but they gotta "bump n' grind" and "work it" to get that $20/hr. They ain't just serving drinks and chips from the galley. They ain't just sitting on the jumpseat doing crossword puzzles or doing their scheduels on some red-eye. And that is important. Some people do things that are "special" in the course of labor, and get paid accordingly. Other's don't, and therefore get less. We however, are paying "special" wages, for something that really isn't so special. It's not rocket science, or humilitation to be an F/A. You need not be a computer wizard to be a ticket agent. You don't have to be a musclehead to be a ramper. Qualified persons for the job are a dime a dozen out there, and a smart businessman should not pay more than that.

Even tha pilot profession has changed. Yes, there still is the huge resposibilities, but let's be frank here. When a captain sits down in the left seat of a A320, he is not flying his daddies old 707 or DC-8. His daddy had to not just learn and work those old beasts, but had learn to tame them as well. There were no computers, fly by wire, ECAMS, FMS's and all the other goodies we have today. Does a pilot deserve good pay? Of course. But what is good pay? Try to keep this in mind: The average yearly wage in the US right now is between $30,000 to $35,000 a year. Chew on that number for a while. A $100,000 a year wage is HUGE in comparison. You can live a pretty nice life on that amount. But trying to get a guy to accept a wage like that is sometimes like pulling teeth. "I want more", is the cry. Ok, fair enough, so to get more, you need to DO more. I think that is part of the goal here that Siegel wants to do.

 

[Fly]

Again,....got to keep laughing as I read your posts. $100,000 is NOT a very good living. Sorry. ( and yes, I realize I make waaaaay less then that amount.....I don't even make enough to pay for my children's elementary school!) Chew on that.