Ramp Agents Only, Please

[Ramp Rogue]

Hadenough,

Thank you for replying. I truly understand where you are coming from. I don't agree with it but I do understand. You chose to uproot and move. Others may not have been in a position to uproot. Kids in school, elderly parents to care for, living two lives, supporting two households, commuting. All of these things come into play when leaving one city as p/t to move to another for f/t. It just isn't feasible for everyone to do that. That is why some chose to wait it out in the city they were hired in. Because their situation in life was such that they couldn't move, doesn't mean that they should be punished for it by having their seniority taken away. Because your situation in life did allow you to move, doesn't mean that you should be able to gain seniority. The day a person is hired is the day their seniority starts. When they leave the company is when it should stop. There is no middle ground. Have you ever heard of someone changing their birthday? I don't think so.

Once again thank you for replying. We need different opinions to help us to better explore the different avenues of seniority.

 

[Hadenough]

Ramp Rouge

Thanks for the understanding. There is no perfect system out there. No matter what someone is going to feel shafted. The bitterness has long since passed and I have accepted the situtation I am in at present. I was hoping others would tell their own stories about how the seniority issue has affected their lives. When I first came here people with the seniority I have now had day shift with weekends off. My goal was to eventually transfer back to my home town but that station has since been taken over by commuters.

 

[orioleman]

john john,
" Did you hit the long ball in ORF"

many moons ago. got hired under the pretense that I would be playing for the boss.

but after getting on had to pick up other peoples hours to survive so NO didn't hit the long ball

for the PI team.

 

[orioleman]

700
"But you use your original date under the CBA for bidding and accruing vacations,"

Yes and No.
Yes you accrue Vacation
NO you don't bid by original date. Hence the debate..

stick to you mtc thread....

 

[Kev3188]

I think there SHOULD be two seperate seniority systems. No adjusted date at all. All of this is for bidding purposes only.

P/T should be straight DOH and F/T should be from the date you went F/T.

This would be seem to be the easiest way to avoid the leapfrogging that occured in Hadenough's example.

I still don't "get" the adjusted dates; it just seems like it creates much more confusion & animosity than anything.

JMHO, as I don't have a dog in this fight...

 

[freedom]

DOH

 

[Ramp Rogue]

This would be seem to be the easiest way to avoid the leapfrogging that occured in Hadenough's example.
I still don't "get" the adjusted dates; it just seems like it creates much more confusion & animosity than anything.

Kev,
Here is an example of the animosity it creates.

Example #1
1. You get in the bin!
2. No, you get in the bin!
1. I'm fulltime. You get in the bin.
2. So What! I'm parttime because I don't want fulltime. You get in the bin.
1. I bid before you. You get in the bin.
2. I was hired first. You get in the bin.

Example #2
1. I get to bid 4 weeks vacation this year.
2. I get to bid 3 weeks vacation this year. But I get to bid before you, so I'm going to take Christmas,
New Years, and the 4th of July weeks.
1. I was hired 3 years before you, why do you get to bid before me?
2. Because I was hired p/t in XXX and I went f/t in 2 weeks.
You were hired p/t in ZZZ and it took you 5 years to get f/t. You earn more vacation than me, but I
get to bid my vacation before you.

Example #3
1. Let's fly to see the Suns and the Spurs play.
2. Ok.
Gate Agent. #1 you'll be sitting in 14F. #2 you won't make the flight because there are people more
senior than you.
2. But I know I'm more senior than #1, I bid before him.
Gate Agent. That may be so, but he was hired first which makes him senior to you. He goes you
stay.

These are three more fine examples of the mess that was created by adjusted seniority!
DOH must prevail!

 

[Hadenough]

Ramp Rogue
I feel I must add my two cents worth again.

Your first example is irrelevant in my station because P/T or F/T or wether your senior or not we usually work in crews of our choosing and share the work equally. Your seniority date does not determine if you get in the bin or work as the "counter". Neither does the fact of being F/T or P/T. We rotate work assignment on the gates each push and in PBR you divide the work up equally.

Vacation is accrued by date of hire and not by adjusted date (I think) and are bid on two seperate bids. F/T and P/T do not bid vacations together.


The adjusted date only applies to bidding shifts and days off not to non-reving. Just as the fact of wether your a pilot, mechanic, fleet or other work group your hire date is the date you use to fly. P/T or F/T has no impact on your boarding priority.

 

[JoeDirt]

First of all I apologize for this post. It is going to be a long one because I have given this issue a lot of thought and in order to explain fully it
requires quite a bit of clarification. These are just my thoughts on the issue.


The big question here is how does someone integrate various workers from so many different systems. Over the years people from a wide
variety of airlines have been thrown together as one large work group. How can you be fair to all? We have people who were hired F/T and have
never worked one day as a P/T agent. We have others who were hired P/T and attained F/T rather quickly. Others that worked for years as P/T
and then upgraded to F/T status. There are also those that have went back and forth between P/T and F/T for a wide variety of reasons. Whats
is going to seem fair to all? There is no perfect system to achieve this goal. A middle ground must be reached. Where is the middle ground that
will address all the different histories.

This is my suggestion. Like it or not it is just my opinion because I will have no say so in the final outcome what so ever.

DOH should be used for ALL purposes except the following: Bidding of days off, shifts, work groups and vacations.

As I see things we basically have three work groups within the ramp system. We have F/T, P/T and Lead agents. There should be no closed bids
within any of these three groups. As it is now in CLT we have way too many sub-groups. There are closed bids in International (both as agents
and leads) asign leads, ramp leads and bagroom leads. If your seniority allows you to bid one of these positions you should be able to do so.
The only group that should have seperate bids are F/T and P/T and this should also apply to vacation bids. All F/T agents should bid together as
one group and if you so chose you should be able to bid a lead line or an agent line. What date do we use to do this bidding? For the sake of
simplicity reasons I suggest the following:

P/T: Vacation accural and vacation bidding, work areas, shift and days off should be straight DOH.

F/T: Vacation accural and vacation bidding, work areas, shifts and days off and wether a lead line or an agent line should be by an adjusted
date. Not the type of date we have now but a whole new date and a new system to determine this date. The new adjusted date should be determined by the amount of time served as an actual F/T employee as a "Ramp Rat". No half credit for time as P/T just the actual time in a F/T position.

Pick it apart if you so chose. I will not debate this issue. Just stating my opinion.

 

[lithuanian]

DOH or any other way. Union can't help! We're at a point of "Wait and See". All airlines are waiting to be picked up! Hopefully! There is a leader in the bunch.

 

[bob dylan]

I have read all your posts and I agree that this is a subject with different views but at least
it has remained civil, so far. Now my opinion and I do have one is DOH in all circumstances except
for those workers who by thier own choice have decided to stay P/T and later decide they want the
F/T upgrade.

Rouge in many of your examples you seem to be straight DOH irregardless. In my example see
if you still agree: Employee #1 and #2 are hired one week apart as P/T. After one month a F/T
position becomes available but the shift is Tues./ Wed. off 1530-0001. Employee #1 turns it down
because he currently has weekends off and makes up for the difference in swaps and OT. Employee
#2 takes the upgarde and gets added to the F/T roster. Now 6 months down the road a F/T position
becomes available again but this time it is Sun./Mon. off 1400/2230 and employee #1 takes it. Now
your saying that when the new bid comes up Employee #1 should go ahead of Employee#2 due to
DOH and in that I don't agree. Employee #1 should still have more senoirity for sick time, vacation
and any layoffs but I agree with ''perserverance'' that in bidding his ''bidding senioirity'' should be
affected. Now if anybody's P/T or F/T staus is impacted by the company than thier seniority should
not be affected but remain DOH throughout. Any ramifications to ones' ''bidding seniority'' should
only be due to ones' own choices.

If DOH is decide upon I will hold no ill will as a matter of fact I will move up significantly. I was
one of those P/T' s who lived high on the hog for awhile and laughed at the ones' who accepted a
F/T upgrade only to end up on night work with lousy days off. Years later I took an upgrade when
I basiaclly wanted to and I am not upset at where I bid. I want my seniority in the event of layoffs
and vacation but in the bidding process I knew ahead of time by me turning down an upgrade my
bidding seniority would be affected. Again this was my choice to do this and if one has not been
offered to upgrade than thier DOH should remain constant til they decide to turn it down. Only for
bidding and nothing else.

Now, I'm sure some or most will disagree with me but this is fair to me and I am one of those
who would see a positive change if DOH went across the board. Just my thoughts.


bob

 

[roabilly]

First of all I apologize for this post. It is going to be a long one because I have given this issue a lot of thought and in order to explain fully it
requires quite a bit of clarification. These are just my thoughts on the issue.


The big question here is how does someone integrate various workers from so many different systems. Over the years people from a wide
variety of airlines have been thrown together as one large work group. How can you be fair to all? We have people who were hired F/T and have
never worked one day as a P/T agent. We have others who were hired P/T and attained F/T rather quickly. Others that worked for years as P/T
and then upgraded to F/T status. There are also those that have went back and forth between P/T and F/T for a wide variety of reasons. Whats
is going to seem fair to all? There is no perfect system to achieve this goal. A middle ground must be reached. Where is the middle ground that
will address all the different histories.

This is my suggestion. Like it or not it is just my opinion because I will have no say so in the final outcome what so ever.

DOH should be used for ALL purposes except the following: Bidding of days off, shifts, work groups and vacations.

As I see things we basically have three work groups within the ramp system. We have F/T, P/T and Lead agents. There should be no closed bids
within any of these three groups. As it is now in CLT we have way too many sub-groups. There are closed bids in International (both as agents
and leads) asign leads, ramp leads and bagroom leads. If your seniority allows you to bid one of these positions you should be able to do so.
The only group that should have seperate bids are F/T and P/T and this should also apply to vacation bids. All F/T agents should bid together as
one group and if you so chose you should be able to bid a lead line or an agent line. What date do we use to do this bidding? For the sake of
simplicity reasons I suggest the following:

P/T: Vacation accural and vacation bidding, work areas, shift and days off should be straight DOH.

F/T: Vacation accural and vacation bidding, work areas, shifts and days off and wether a lead line or an agent line should be by an adjusted
date. Not the type of date we have now but a whole new date and a new system to determine this date. The new adjusted date should be determined by the amount of time served as an actual F/T employee as a "Ramp Rat". No half credit for time as P/T just the actual time in a F/T position.

Pick it apart if you so chose. I will not debate this issue. Just stating my opinion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damn...

Boy... I hear yahh...

Couldn't ahh said it better mahself !

CLT GC... Yahh listin' ?

 

[redeye]

Loud and clear.

We have been walking the work areas asking what the
membership wants. We drafted a letter that MF took to
negotiations. Negotiations fell through, but the delay allows
the membership more time to address their concerns.
Drop by the GC office any time. Unless we are attending
hearings, the door will be open.

Thanks,

 

[cltramp]

You people crack me up .Its pretty simple unless everybody goes by the same method of getting full time their is only one fair way to go DOH.I don't have a problem with somebody who has been with the company longer moving ahead of me .It should not be about who got on their knee's in order to get FT faster or how many test you completed.or if you didn't have the opportunity like at usair to go fulltime for a year or so because it was done by seniority or at PSA who used DOH.What if I work six hour shifts as a PT do i get more seniority than some who only works four in another city.Think about that I only work two hours less than a FT.If you give America west fleet service DOH then everybody should have DOH they didn't get their PT cut in half.Why should they have more senoirity than somebody at usairway's who might not have had the same opportunity as somebody out west had.To many scenarios,to many systems,to many airline's, the only thing we have in common is the date you were hired therefore thats the only fair way.

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Ramp Rogue
I feel I must add my two cents worth again.

Your first example is irrelevant in my station because P/T or F/T or wether your senior or not we usually work in crews of our choosing and share the work equally. Your seniority date does not determine if you get in the bin or work as the "counter". Neither does the fact of being F/T or P/T. We rotate work assignment on the gates each push and in PBR you divide the work up equally.

Hadenough,

You have made a very valid point. That point being that my first example is irrelevant in your station. That may well be true. But in other stations it is relevant. Although I stated them as examples, they are true. Which means that although it has no relevancy in your station, the ones that it does pertain to have these things to fight about on a daily basis. That is why we need to come to some middle ground where all stations are playing on a level field. Some can't be adjusted while others are not. Everyone is either adjusted, or everyone is DOH. Whichever it is, make everyone go through the same process. What's fair for one has to be fair for all, or it will never work.