Seniority and Trips

USPHX

Member
Jan 14, 2008
57
0
Tempe, Az
After the Hudson incident many of us Westyz were surprised to learn that a f/a crew with up to 38 years seniority was flying a 4 day trip. Given the fact that our most senior flight attendant has a hire date of August 1st, 1983 (the day America West started flying), that puts our number 1 somewhere around 2000 (or lower) on the global seniority list. In fact, our most senior f/a had not even been BORN yet when Bette Nash was hired!

Now that the pilots seniority issues seem to be on the verge of being settled, it seems a joint contract could actual be possible. Even though on paper it would seem we Westyz are going to take a huge hit in bidding power, I suspect that this is probably not actually going to be the case. I'm guessing (wishful thinking?) that most of us will still be able to hold the same type trips we held the day before the merger.

Here is a very rough guesstimate of what we hold in PHX based of years of service. I would be curious to know what type of flying could be expected in all of our other bases using this same breakdown of 25, 20, 15 and 10 years of seniority.

Remember, these are just approximations but here is the gist of how it goes down in PHX:

25+ years: Transcon turn days (21-22 days off a month)

20-25 years: Hawaii and high yield 2/3 days

15-12 years: Decent 3 and 4 days

10-15years: All the crap no one else wanted, including 5 and 6 day legs on 737s.

0-10: Reserve

We in the west have had our heads buried in the sand, happily flying our old AWA routes and planes with a US Airways paint job. Break it to us gently on how very junior we are all going to be once we truly are the same airline. Don't hold back the cold, hard truth. We can take it.... and after we get over the initial depression we will not whine, throw temper tantrums or try to start a new union.

Thanks for sharing!
 
It is not unusual for more senior folks to fly 4 day trips or 2 back to back 3 days on the east coast. Many people some of which are our most senior commute. If memory serves the 4 day that 1549 was on had a long SFO layover in it. Sully is a PSA guy and still lives in the SFO area. It is difficult to break down what seniority flies what. Transatlantic is senior and so are the island turns. Other than that I think it is really based on each individual's need. Some won't fly transatlantic. Some bid based on commutable trips. Some will bid based on A/C type. The list goes on and on. Betty Nash from what I understand flies 1 day Shuttle trips. The only thing that you can really tell by seniority is if you are on RSV or not.
 
You should be able to hold all the same trips you do now unless the company builds trips differently for you. It's not like on the day of integration we would all be able to bid PHX. We could only come west if the company opens transfers to PHX. Right now, transfers aren't even open between our bases.
 
My guess would be something like 10% of the east(@ 300 of varying seniority) would go west.

I am only guessing.

I would also wager that 10%( 150?) of the west would go east for varying reasons such as commuting, international flying, etc.

Again the east can't just show up in PHX -there have to be openings.

As has been stated in a prior post many who could theoretically go west would remain on the east to:

1. fly with friends.
2. fly international for better pay, better destinations, less time in base more days off.
3. combination of 1 & 2
4. have 1 leg out, long over night, 1 leg back- in their home town (LAX,SAN,SFO,LAS,SEA).

IMHO the reality is less frightening for the west than it would appear.

Again just guessing.
 
No way.... very few will transfer to PHX....
Most senior f/a's who were PSA are flying international..
why would they go to PHX to fly these trips????
Won't happen...
Some will..... but most won't...
IMHO



My guess would be something like 10% of the east(@ 300 of varying seniority) would go west.

I am only guessing.

I would also wager that 10%( 150?) of the west would go east for varying reasons such as commuting, international flying, etc.

Again the east can't just show up in PHX -there have to be openings.

As has been stated in a prior post many who could theoretically go west would remain on the east to:

1. fly with friends.
2. fly international for better pay, better destinations, less time in base more days off.
3. combination of 1 & 2
4. have 1 leg out, long over night, 1 leg back- in their home town (LAX,SAN,SFO,LAS,SEA).

IMHO the reality is less frightening for the west than it would appear.

Again just guessing.
 
I would gather since they will be basically in the top 5% they could fly high time turns and have almost the entire month off. We have a lot of commuters who get a cheap crash pad and bid for high time turns, such and EWR to LAX,SFO,SNA,LAS, the Islands, and Mexico. These trips are worth any where from 9:30-12:00 hours of block time. So they work 6 with one day off and maybe another 3-4 and have over 3 weeks off and pull in close to six grand for the month or more for the month. They do this rather then working multi-day trips or Int'l. Some of them just can't do the time changes.

Then we have the others who back-end all Int'l trips such as, a 3-day FCO get back wednesday afternoon and wednesday night leave for TLV or Sao Paulo. So they work 6 days and do it only in 5 days. They work 10 days and then have the rest of the month off but they got in 12 days worth of work in only 10. There is no Int'l from PHX yet, is there?
 
As someone who just went from a commuter capt dude in a NE base -block holder---DOWN---to top 10% F/O near home---I bid max time in trips which for me is island trips----EX-PSA folks commuting to KPHL has got to be a nightmare--you will live longer and enjoy life NOT commuting 10 hrs just to go to Europe---who needs 5 or so time zones and hotel rooms on your nickel.
 
Something else that may have an effect on transfers is the fact that many possible east transferees are nearing the ends of their careers. With 401ks not looking as healthy as they once did many will choose to stay on INT to build up their "best" final years for retirement purposes.

In addition, spending on hotel rooms would be more efficient with 3day INT pay and per diem worth 20+ hours versus 1 days, which I'm guessing are non commutable, also w/ hotel expenses and limited per diem.

The bottom line is: where can they make the most money before retirement?
 
I guess at each airline it really is just completely different. I know a few real senior people that make more money off of the Island and West coast turns. So they just get a crash pad and pay 150-200 a month. Our pension goes by your last 5 years, so that's why we have alot of F/A's flying 160-200 hours a month. Our top pay with over rides and incentive pay puts you over 50+ an hour and if you work lead. We get our per diem back on turns in DEC. So I know some are currently pulling in before taxes, give or take a few 10,000 a month.

Are you guys allowed to start and end a trip on the same day? Such as getting in from SNN, and leaving back out on a later flight to Europe?
 
With 401ks not looking as healthy as they once did many will choose to stay on INT to build up their "best" final years for retirement purposes.

No longer figured in the retirement formula as the pension was abolished and terminated by Judge Mitchell during BK. What you had in as of the termination date is what you you can expect (from the mighty LCC) to retire on in 20-30 years....if you are young enough to try to make up the difference. Why do you think all the F/As are so senior on the EAST????? They can no longer afford to retire.

This is now their second job to augment their meager Social Security and the PBGC check(s). :shock:

The bottom line is: where can they make the most money before retirement?

Anywhere but US Airways...... :down:
 
I guess at each airline it really is just completely different. I know a few real senior people that make more money off of the Island and West coast turns. So they just get a crash pad and pay 150-200 a month. Our pension goes by your last 5 years, so that's why we have alot of F/A's flying 160-200 hours a month. Our top pay with over rides and incentive pay puts you over 50+ an hour and if you work lead. We get our per diem back on turns in DEC. So I know some are currently pulling in before taxes, give or take a few 10,000 a month.

Are you guys allowed to start and end a trip on the same day? Such as getting in from SNN, and leaving back out on a later flight to Europe?

Yes we can double up on our trips as long as we have the legal rest requirement or you don't exceed your max flying hours and max duty time. NO you cannot double up on International trips the same day you will exceed all of the above. I hear TLV you will be able to double out on because its suppose to arrive in PHL before 6am, in theory you could go back out that night on another trip domestic or international as long as you meet your rest requirements.

On another note, I do have to agree with another post what you are holding in the PHX base isn't going to change on the system seniority number. You base number is what determines your seniority within your base. That number isn't going to change unless they have a need to open up PHX for transfers. I think you will see the East coast bases open up for transfers before you will see openings available in PHX. NO one from an East coast base is going to be able to come to PHX just because they have the seniority to do it and knock someone out it doesn't work that way. We have flight attendants based in CLT that have had transfers in for PHL for over a year and can't get in. PHL hasn't been open for transfers I believe since PIT closed or shortly thereafter. I'm sure there are PHX based flight attendants that would like to go to an East coast base for whatever reason, they will have the opportunity to do so if there are openings.

We do not have the high yeild domestic turns that is so popular in PHX, but we do have the high yeild island turns that are one day trips and some that operate out of PHL pay international pay. We also have the all nighters that do not pay as much but people love them! You can rack up a month of 30 hrs of claim on an 80 hr line, flying a block of all nighters.
 
Something else that may have an effect on transfers is the fact that many possible east transferees are nearing the ends of their careers. With 401ks not looking as healthy as they once did many will choose to stay on INT to build up their "best" final years for retirement purposes.

In addition, spending on hotel rooms would be more efficient with 3day INT pay and per diem worth 20+ hours versus 1 days, which I'm guessing are non commutable, also w/ hotel expenses and limited per diem.

The bottom line is: where can they make the most money before retirement?
Best final years are no longer in effect...
With the PBGC it is now calculated we have already completed our best final years...
and that was after the first bk
 
After the Hudson incident many of us Westyz were surprised to learn that a f/a crew with up to 38 years seniority was flying a 4 day trip. Given the fact that our most senior flight attendant has a hire date of August 1st, 1983 (the day America West started flying), that puts our number 1 somewhere around 2000 (or lower) on the global seniority list. In fact, our most senior f/a had not even been BORN yet when Bette Nash was hired!

Now that the pilots seniority issues seem to be on the verge of being settled, it seems a joint contract could actual be possible. Even though on paper it would seem we Westyz are going to take a huge hit in bidding power, I suspect that this is probably not actually going to be the case. I'm guessing (wishful thinking?) that most of us will still be able to hold the same type trips we held the day before the merger.

Here is a very rough guesstimate of what we hold in PHX based of years of service. I would be curious to know what type of flying could be expected in all of our other bases using this same breakdown of 25, 20, 15 and 10 years of seniority.

Remember, these are just approximations but here is the gist of how it goes down in PHX:

25+ years: Transcon turn days (21-22 days off a month)

20-25 years: Hawaii and high yield 2/3 days

15-12 years: Decent 3 and 4 days

10-15years: All the crap no one else wanted, including 5 and 6 day legs on 737s.

0-10: Reserve

We in the west have had our heads buried in the sand, happily flying our old AWA routes and planes with a US Airways paint job. Break it to us gently on how very junior we are all going to be once we truly are the same airline. Don't hold back the cold, hard truth. We can take it.... and after we get over the initial depression we will not whine, throw temper tantrums or try to start a new union.

Thanks for sharing!
I guess you forgot about training? Our most senior's started in May '83....
 

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