Seniority Integration

[Bear96]

A newhire 3 months ago with HP had a career expectation. The carrier was not in bankruptcy, much less for the second time in two years.

A 2000-01 hire with U is lucky to be working (if any even are working).

I'd say the HP folks have to go ahead of U involuntary furloughs.

[post="275884"][/post]​

Unfortunately for HP F/As, "career expectations" are not a factor in determining AFA integration -- that is strictly an ALPA merger integration concept.

 

[michael707767]

AFAIK, all AFL-CIO unions are expected to use DOH integration regardless of circumstances--whether merger or purchase. ALPA is AFL-CIO.

[post="275834"][/post]​

actually, in the case of ALPA you are wrong. ALPA removed DOH from its merger language long ago.

 

[TheDog2004]

 

[StewGuy86]

What is your screen name again?... You must be a diehard Democrat who believes that freedom of expression only applies if it fits/protects your lifestyle, religion, or viewpoint....

And YOU sound like a diehard Republican who believes that freedom of expression only applies if it fits/protects YOUR lifestyle, religion, or viewpoint.

 

[Busdrvr]

Well back to the topic.....


I honestly don't get why people would even consider fences over a "fair" integration (one which benefits BOTH groups, and does not provide a windfall to either group at the expense of another).
This ludicrous argument for DOH with big @ss fences reminds me of the "our amplifier goes to eleven" discussion from "Spinal Tap". People are so caught up in "seniority" that they will trade away the op to actually live somewhere that doesn't suck to get fenced into DCA or PHL so they can "keep my seniority". Wouldn't an agreement WITHOUT fences that in effect resulted in no one getting involutarily bumped from a domicile be better (because the new seniority list results in just as many U folks wanting to go west as HP folks wanting to go east). Wouldn't it be great if the Cali commuters could go to work in Vegas or PHX, EVEN if it caused a drop in 'relative seniority'? wouldn't it be great to leave the ice storms of the east coast for the sun and a pool in PHX? HP will be adding the Hawaii trips before operational integration. Will they get to "fence" off the U folks? you rather spend a day in FRA or HNL? Why not build an agreement that allows both groups to DO BOTH? seems to me one of the supposed benefits of a merger is operational efficiency. Yet already the demand for DOH with fences will take much of that away while everybody fights over who's flying is each and every trip. Crazy.

 

[Twicebaked]

U and AWA are AFA/CWA..so it is DOH. PERIOD. They may figure something out so the bases will have fenses, which is only right. The nearly 1000 F/A's that are leaving this year are ALL senior to the AWA F/A's. They are gonna do another VFLR in Jan 2006, it is also in the contract. They recently stopped classes at AWA..Like last month. So, yes they do have alot of junior F/A's. They are junior to the U furloughed ones, and the furloughed f/a's at U will come back and be senior to them, only fair. Some of us had nearly 4 years at U.

[post="275838"][/post]​

Actually, if you think about it, the flight attendants at U that were involuntarily furloughed back in 2001 and 2002 have not been accruing seniority. They were in essence severed from the company with a recall right. I would assume that some of the "junior" folks at HP would in fact be senior to some of our furloughed folks for bidding purposes. If someone at HP has been there for 2 years and a U flight attendant only had 1 1/2 years when furloughed, that HP flight attendant is senior to the U flight attendant by 6 months for bidding blocks and such. I am not 100 % sure, but I think this would be the case. Pitbull????

The furloughed flight attendants from U come back where the left off, not where they "should" be had they not gotten furloughed. It may not be as bad for the HP folks as we think.

Someone that knows FOR SURE, please confirm or deny..not speculation. Again, Pitbull???

 

[Twicebaked]

exactly how much money is America West paying for USAirways?
more specifically how much money is America West putting into the deal?

[post="275852"][/post]​

Actually, HP is not fronting money for this deal. All monies have been put in a "nameless" subsidiary under the US Airways Group. This "nameless" subsidiary has the money to front this. US Airways is NOT buying HP, but U is holding the pot.

 

[DCAflyer]

Actually, if you think about it, the flight attendants at U that were involuntarily furloughed back in 2001 and 2002 have not been accruing seniority. They were in essence severed from the company with a recall right. I would assume that some of the "junior" folks at HP would in fact be senior to some of our furloughed folks for bidding purposes. If someone at HP has been there for 2 years and a U flight attendant only had 1 1/2 years when furloughed, that HP flight attendant is senior to the U flight attendant by 6 months for bidding blocks and such. I am not 100 % sure, but I think this would be the case. Pitbull????

The furloughed flight attendants from U come back where the left off, not where they "should" be had they not gotten furloughed. It may not be as bad for the HP folks as we think.

Someone that knows FOR SURE, please confirm or deny..not speculation.  Again, Pitbull???

[post="276450"][/post]​

Actually, I don't think that's correct, but I will look at the contract and bylaws... late next week probably because I'm busy. But furloughed people do accrue seniority. For instance, a flight attendant who was hired in 2000, furloughed in 2002, and now at MAA is given a nonrev boarding priority greater than a CCY non-management accountant hired in 2002, if I am correct. Their boarding priority goes in order of (1) Must rides, then (2) active employees by date of hire, then things go down from there according to status... furloughed, retired, buddy passes, etc. As for trip and base bidding, I don't thing there is a pause in seniority accrual... otherwise I don't think so many people would have taken voluntary furloughs. I have neither read nor heard of anything like that.

As for fences... we just can't keep them forever. I think the goal needs to be to bring them down at the earliest practical opportunity... 12 months or 18 maximum, to give the company a chance to integrate service, policies, computer systems, uniforms, and eventually training. I see no reason this can't be accomplished in 18 months. I am not in favor of furloughed people bumping active AWA employees, but by the same token I would be adamently opposed to AWA hiring off the street when a fence is in place. I think the fence needs a built-in gate that can be opened to bring back furloughed people. I would even not be opposed to a temporary staple of these people as long as once the fence is down, seniority is clensed and DOH prevails, as per the bylaws.

But let's be clear, the bylaws speak nothing of fences. They speak nothing of staples. They speak nothing of offseting seniority in any way other than adjustments for days in training if one of the merging carriers did not previously recognize training days in their seniority factor. The AFA bylaws are clear and unambiguous, and it is obvious from their reading that a great deal of thought went into the wording of Section X.

 

[DCAflyer]

Actually, HP is not fronting money for this deal. All monies have been put in a "nameless" subsidiary under the US Airways Group. This "nameless" subsidiary has the money to front this. US Airways is NOT buying HP, but U is holding the pot.

[post="276452"][/post]​

Twice, you are correct. The people saying that AWA is buying UAIR is simply not true. A separate entity is being formed to purchase the assets of both carriers.

 

[eolesen]

Twice, you are correct. The people saying that AWA is buying UAIR is simply not true. A separate entity is being formed to purchase the assets of both carriers.

[post="276476"][/post]​

Wrong, wrong, wrong....

Every credible equity analyst has called this as HP buying US. These are people who examine corporate finances and mergers/aquisitions for a career, as opposed to being armchair analysts (myself included) with a biased opinion based on our day jobs.

US is essentially being bought on the courthouse steps by an investor group including HP.

HP shareholders equity is being exchanged for a 40ish % ownership of the new entity's equity.

US shareholders can't participate in the investment group because their equity doesn't exist anymore due to the bankruptcy.

The way the deal is being structured may appear differently to a layman, but the formation of the holding company is simply for accounting, finance and corporate governance purposes. Reading anything else into that (i.e. it's a merger of equals) might make some people feel better about the deal, but I'd rather believe the equity analysts when they call it like it is.

 

[PSA1979]

Here are two sections that apply to involuntary furloughed f/a's at U. The first section is from the May 2000 contract, and the second section is from the revision dated Dec. 2002. The involuntary f/a's do not accrue longevity or seniority while out on an invol. furlough. So, however long they are out, they will only come back with as much longevity and seniority that they went out with. MDA time does not count towards mainline.



H. A flight attendant who is furloughed shall, upon return to duty, be credited with all longevity for pay and vacation step increases that he/she had accrued prior to such furlough.



The Company may operate MDA as a separate division within mainline – US Airways, Inc. Wages, benefits and work rules will match the AA Eagle flight attendant agreement. Flight attendants will carry to MDA their longevity for pay purposes only. Seniority relative to other US Airways flight attendants will not be affected.A flight attendant may bid or be displaced to an MDA position subject to restrictions to be negotiated. A flight attendant may accept an involuntary furlough in lieu of displacement to an MDA position and will receive accrued furlough pay, and a flight attendant on furlough may bypass recall to an MDA position; in either case, the flight attendant will then be offered recall when his/her seniority entitles him/her to a position on a mainline aircraft.

 

[DCAflyer]

Wrong, wrong, wrong....

Every credible equity analyst has called this as HP buying US. These are people who examine corporate finances and mergers/aquisitions for a career, as opposed to being armchair analysts (myself included) with a biased opinion based on our day jobs.

US is essentially being bought on the courthouse steps by an investor group including HP.

HP shareholders equity is being exchanged for a 40ish % ownership of the new entity's equity.

US shareholders can't participate in the investment group because their equity doesn't exist anymore due to the bankruptcy.

The way the deal is being structured may appear differently to a layman, but the formation of the holding company is simply for accounting, finance and corporate governance purposes. Reading anything else into that (i.e. it's a merger of equals) might make some people feel better about the deal, but I'd rather believe the equity analysts when they call it like it is.

[post="276497"][/post]​

You know, you are every bit as big of a know it all as A320Pilot. Both companies have both call it a merger... a marriage of synergies, if you will. If UAIR were being bought on the courthouse steps, a deal would not have been in place before opening it up to the required bidding period. I am happy that you can tell me which analysts are credible analyst and which ones are not, but given the fact that almost every analyst wrote off UAIR well before the 2002 chapter 11 filing, and we are still here, I don't put much stock in any of then, whether you believe they are credible or not. I quite simply don't give a crAAp what you or AAnyone from your pAAtethic AAirline thinks when you come in here and butt into our business. But then again, it's understandable, since Parker has already said one of our first targeted growth areas will be DFW, with or lowered cost structure and simplified pricing. I might be a little concerned about my airline too!

Bahbye!

 

[Travelpro72]

You are soooo right DC..... Boy the threads have been pretty quiet today. I needed that. Everyone has a right to say what they wish. HP is not buying US. Regardless of admitting, alot of the other carriers are afraid of this working and SHOULD BE. Say what anyone must. It's pure entertainment on a lazy day to read. LOL

 

[usfliboi]

So Hp has a 40% interest in the new company and who owns the 60%? lol

 

[azvolfan]

Anybody mind an HP employee chiming in?