The "locked" post by B787 was an outright fabrication. No such event ever occured!!!! In fact, truth be known, the UAL pilots were a bloodthirsty bunch who were going to staple the U pilots to the bottom of the seniority list. We were the "smaller carrier" with no "big" airplanes. As a former Transamerica pilot I went throught the Saturn/Trans International merger--it was a no brainer. As a PSA pilot I went through 2 mergers; the US/PSA and the US/Piedmont--again, no brainers. There will always be some yokel who cries the blues because he got screwed out of 1 seniority number but that's the breaks. What has to be remembered is that all the merger decisions are made at a pay grade higher than the us at the pilot level. If it is going to happen, it will happen. If it happens we make the best of it and do our part to integrate the seniority lists in a fair and equitable way. NO MORE FEAR TACTICS OR RUMORS, PLEEEZE!!!!
Seniority/merger
- Thread starter d9ever
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D9ever, How could that be? with UAL/U both in ALPA they have to follow ALPA merger policy right? No staple job possible for any like pilot groups.
skyflyr69 said:
That was just the thing... UAL ALPA and UAL AFA didn't want to play by the rules. The bylaws are the bylaws... plain, simple, clear... total merger seniority intergration. Some UAL F/A's went so far as to try to remove AFA and form their own union so they wouldn't have to go by DOH. AA, however, did the dirty work for its employees. It came up with a merger plan with TWA but made the transaction look like a bankruptcy liquidation where AA was apparently buying the troubled airline on the courthouse steps. To pacify its own employees, and to avoid seniority fights, AA stapled TWA seniority to the bottom and coralled all former TWA employees to STL, where they essentially became "bubble boy" employees. Then, after 911, people with 40 years seniority were furloughed.
Now, these same UAL employees and AA employees come over to the AWA baords on some apparent humanitarian mission warning the AWA employees that the sky is falling and that the big bad US Airways employees are going to screw AWA folks out of seniority.
Why would they do that? Why would they stick their noses in where they don't belong. Welllllll, let's take a look!
For years, employees of the bigger airlines (read, AA, DAL, UAL) have been counting on the demise of UAIR. They salivate at the thought of getting our routes, DCA slots and gates. And of course, we hear about market oversaturation, and if just one airline (read, UAIR) were to parish, that would, in their misguided view, cure all of the industry's ills. They stick their respective noses into our business and tell us, demand actually, that we should not take concessions (despite the fact that if we didn't the bankruptcy court would impose far greater pain). They wrongly believe that if we didn't take concessions, and if our pensions weren't terminated, their companies would not come after them.
Now mind you, I don't recall them complaining when UAIR pay was among the highest in the industry and that was a guage for increasing their own pay, benefits, and work rules during the fat years. But I guess in some peoples' minds, things only work one way... they got what they needed and now we can die!
These employees ignore the obvious. Even if UAIR were to parish, their employers cannot afford to buy our assets, thus the LCCs who can afford them will grow even bigger... largely into DCA, LGA, and BOS, making the airlines that really threaten them even stronger. They also ignore the obvious ecomonic realities... that people are largely unwilling to pay $2000 to cross the country when they jump on jetBlue and do it for an unrestricted fare of a few hundred dollars, and have satellite TV and newer, cleaner, roomier aircraft. jB and SWA have figured out a way to build a better mousetrap and the reality is every other airline needs to figure out a way to beat them at their own game or they, too, will suffer the same demise as the one they so deeply hope UAIR will suffer.
To illustrate my point of how petty these people are and can be, there is a current situation where some United pilots are refusing to allow jB pilots to non-rev in their jumpseats, an courtesy that is long-standing in the industry. Why, in these pilots view, jB pilots are driving down the salaries of other pilots. It would seem that the UAL pilots expect the jB pilots to sacrefies themselves and their livelihoods to protect the $250K/eight working day months that UAL pilots enjoyed. Now I ask you this... if you were a pilot looking for a job and you had a wife and two kids to feed, shelter, and educate, wouldn't you take a $50,000 job at jB, which will probably turn into an $85,000 left seat job in a year? The UAL pilots want that family of four out on the street to protect the cushy jobs they have!
Let's be clear, United employees... American employees.... Delta employees... they desperately want this deal between UAIR and AWA to NOT go through. It will put further pressure on them to get their own houses in order. Even without a UAIR/AWA marriage, Delta will probably file bankruptcy this summer and American isn't far behind (first quarter of 2006?). They will then be faced with pension cancellations and abrogated contracts. A UAIR/AWA marriage will greatly enhance two route networks and build on our European and Carribean/Central America expansion... and we will be doing it with lower costs, resulting in lower fares.
Yea. But AWA employees still need to VERY carefully protect themselves. If not, when US Airways assets start getting shutdown, THEY'RE going to be sitting in AW aircraft and you'll be watching from behind the airport fence. U is losing huge amounts of money now. AW is also losing but not nearly as much. U is not going to make it AT ALL without AW, and even then it's very iffy. AW would likely survive, without U, that is.
U employees have a lot more to gain in this transaction than AW employees. That's why they're so axious for the deal and to give AW the bum's rush on integration.
U employees have a lot more to gain in this transaction than AW employees. That's why they're so axious for the deal and to give AW the bum's rush on integration.
Why doesn't everyone relax?
IF there is a merger, the process for each respective group will play out and that is that. No amount of moaning, fear, or lies from this message board will change that. For pilots ALPA merger policy will result in a fair and equitable list (as opposed to what a few UAL posters have tried to say, and my guess is that none of those folks have even been through a merger).
I have been through 4 mergers, and they happen much different than many who have posted here.
I for one look forward to working with others and making lots of new friends should this merger occur, and I will not let fear and greed destroy me, as they are the primary emotional drivers here.
There is a process, let it play out, and don't get excited; afterall, it will not change anything anyway. This is not the first, nor will it be the last merger...learn to enjoy the journey, and get excited about the awesome possibilities.
Nuff said.
IF there is a merger, the process for each respective group will play out and that is that. No amount of moaning, fear, or lies from this message board will change that. For pilots ALPA merger policy will result in a fair and equitable list (as opposed to what a few UAL posters have tried to say, and my guess is that none of those folks have even been through a merger).
I have been through 4 mergers, and they happen much different than many who have posted here.
I for one look forward to working with others and making lots of new friends should this merger occur, and I will not let fear and greed destroy me, as they are the primary emotional drivers here.
There is a process, let it play out, and don't get excited; afterall, it will not change anything anyway. This is not the first, nor will it be the last merger...learn to enjoy the journey, and get excited about the awesome possibilities.
Nuff said.
Winglet said:
Winglet said:
I'm not sure I understand your point. I don't see how AWA employees can "protect themselves" or even that they need to. The truth is, they don't have any say in the matter. The merger will go through or won't go through on its own merits and absolutely no regard will be given to the feelings or desires of the AWA employees or the UAIR employees, and actually, not even the majority (number) of the shareholders since a controlling number of shares in both entities are actually held by very few parties who, from current indications, want the deal to go through. So there is nothing to be gained from any perceived protections the AWA employees might avail themselves of.
Moreover, it seem to me that a great deal of planning and discussions are going into Project Barbell to make the combined airline a profitable concern. The people who are responsible for UAIR's current problems will be out and the people who have sheparded AWA through its recent, albeit modest, upswing will be in. In addition, a lot of people apparently fail to see that UAIR has a lot going for it, but it is the current deplorable management that keeps it from returning to its full potential.
Be that as it may, my post really addressed the seniority issues which, with the exception of one labor group, have already been resolved by the precursory language in the respective bylaws. For the life of me, I don't understand why AA and UAL employees need to come over to the AWA board and try to start trouble.
Regards,
DCAflyer
Umm, The merger or marketing partnership has not yet happend, nor been officially announced. So why the fighting over this when things willbe what they will be?
AA191 said:
because some people like to be like Chicken Little and place the cart before the horse and count the chickens before they're hatched.
What other euphemisms should we use for this?
:blink:The funny thing is all you pilots feel a sense of entitlement.. Why? Why should you be integrated into their seniority system as all?
They are buying you.. Pretty simple.. Be happy you will have a job.. You feel like you should have all this seniority? Why? Entitilement..
If I were a AmWest Pilot I would want you at the bottom.. You all laughed at them when they were having a hard time.. Laughed.. You thought the AmWest guys were losers.. HA HA.. Now all of a sudden they are the ones that are going to save you and you feel you should be integrated..
Whaaaaaa. AmWest ALPA leadership, put the US pilots at the bottom.. Thats where they belong.. They sold out their souls to fly one more trip.. They will sell you out in a heartbeat..
They are buying you.. Pretty simple.. Be happy you will have a job.. You feel like you should have all this seniority? Why? Entitilement..
If I were a AmWest Pilot I would want you at the bottom.. You all laughed at them when they were having a hard time.. Laughed.. You thought the AmWest guys were losers.. HA HA.. Now all of a sudden they are the ones that are going to save you and you feel you should be integrated..
Whaaaaaa. AmWest ALPA leadership, put the US pilots at the bottom.. Thats where they belong.. They sold out their souls to fly one more trip.. They will sell you out in a heartbeat..
Who is buying who again?
Oh ya, it doesn't matter, there is a process that protects eveyone equally, as it should be.
In the end it is not a case of AWA buying US Airways.
Quit attempting to stir the pot fool, if your not a pilot (your not and never will be) don't worry about pilot integration, it is above your pay grade.
Oh ya, it doesn't matter, there is a process that protects eveyone equally, as it should be.
In the end it is not a case of AWA buying US Airways.
Quit attempting to stir the pot fool, if your not a pilot (your not and never will be) don't worry about pilot integration, it is above your pay grade.
justaumechanic said:
justaumechanic said:
sorry to say this , but no one is buying anyone!
this is a consolidation of separate airlines into one new airline!
using the equity of the investors to consolidate these airlines via a new holding company
that is managed by doug parker and his team.
North by Northwest
Veteran
luv2fly
Veteran
UseYourHead said:
If you have been through 4 mergers you would know that most don't come out of the process feeling they received "fair and equitable" treament. This merger will result in furloughs and displacements. They always do. Many will be Amwest folks. Ask them afterwards how fair and equitable it all was... for that matter, then ask TWA, Western, and Pan AM just to name a few.
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