Temporary Injunction against USAPA filed today

[SparrowHawk]

Binding....you agreed, live up to it.

And that's Mr. Ahole to you !

He has a valid point you know.

To those who scream "A Deal is A Deal is A Deal", clearly you don't get out much. Corporations, Unions & Individuals do this ALL THE TIME! Classic example is the Marriage Contract, a legal binding contract " Til Death do us part" and how many divorces do we have?

Any contract can be broken if you have enough money and great attorney's. Why do you think when stuff like this happens they call in Jerry "Union Buster" Glass? It's not for his stunning good looks, it's for his knowledge, skills and abilities in a very complex and specific area of the law. It's not personal, it's business pure and simple. If a guy with comparable expertise like Glass was available on the union side he'd be hired by USAPA post haste.

Let's apply your logic to Doug Parker and the rest of US Airways Senior Management and it's relationship with frequent flyers. Parker made numerous statements regarding not gutting the DM program and then went ahead and did the opposite. Not exactly the same thing as US writes the rules and they are subject to change without notice. None the less there was and is an implied contract and a legal binding contract called the Contract of Carriage between US and it's customer that US violates EVERY DAY.

So is it a iron clad deal only when it meets your approval or are there other parameters you'd care to share?

 

[traderjake]

I've done the math and captain on LOA 93 is better than F/O on the Kirby, and I don't have to fly with guys like you!

Yeah right, being an Reserve LOA 93 Captain is a great job.

The company owns you for 22 days a month at $125 per hour and don't forget the 21 vacation days and great trips you get to fly.

That's why every F/O jumps at the first chance he gets to be a Reserve Captain (sarcasm).

It's not LOA93 vs Kirby, everyone knows Kirby is not good enough.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

He has a valid point you know.

To those who scream "A Deal is A Deal is A Deal", clearly you don't get out much. Corporations, Unions & Individuals do this ALL THE TIME! Classic example is the Marriage Contract, a legal binding contract " Til Death do us part" and how many divorces do we have?

Any contract can be broken if you have enough money and great attorney's. Why do you think when stuff like this happens they call in Jerry "Union Buster" Glass? It's not for his stunning good looks, it's for his knowledge, skills and abilities in a very complex and specific area of the law. It's not personal, it's business pure and simple. If a guy with comparable expertise like Glass was available on the union side he'd be hired by USAPA post haste.

Let's apply your logic to Doug Parker and the rest of US Airways Senior Management and it's relationship with frequent flyers. Parker made numerous statements regarding not gutting the DM program and then went ahead and did the opposite. Not exactly the same thing as US writes the rules and they are subject to change without notice. None the less there was and is an implied contract and a legal binding contract called the Contract of Carriage between US and it's customer that US violates EVERY DAY.

So is it a iron clad deal only when it meets your approval or are there other parameters you'd care to share?

Binding means binding. When three sides agree and one then reneges, then you have a problem. If the airline and the union were to agree on a contract, then the airline backed out, that would be equally wrong. Creating an entirely new union just to get out of a signed agreement is a chicken sh** move.

As for FF programs, the company can change it any time they want, its not a contract, its not an agreement, its a marketing tool. Its subject to change all the time. All airlines make changes to their FF programs.

Really? You should know that. Its not an implied contract. Please, show me how the company and the FF''s jointly signed a contract on a FF program.

You are running out of hyperbole.

 

[toganoflex]

Let's see here.

USAPA has been on the property for a number of years now. The run the union, NC, communications, etc. so the west, at least as represented by USAP, is sitting in the back seat (the way back seat in the mini-van).

Yet, to this day, the only list the company has accepted is the Nicolau. They flat out rejected the DOH listed presented by USAP.

So, safe to say, the Nic is here to stay.

And with ALPA's DFR failure to the TWA pilots because ALPA decided to monkey with their own merger policy, its also safe to say that if you monkey with a product of the merger policy, you'll be sued and lose as well.

Wait a minute, USAPA already lost that with Addington so I must be right. True, Addinginton is a legal nullity because of ripeness and not merit, but it sure gets a fine mention in the injunction.

Nic or LOA 93. Pi Brat has chose LOA 93. How about the rest of you?

 

[toganoflex]

You got it, Mr Ahole it is. Question. When all the legal battles are over, do you think we should all be able to vote on our new contract?

Sure.

And I think the majority of you will vote it in.

 

[Pi brat]

Yeah right, being an Reserve LOA 93 Captain is a great job.

The company owns you for 22 days a month at $125 per hour and don't forget the 21 vacation days and great trips you get to fly.

That's why every F/O jumps at the first chance he gets to be a Reserve Captain (sarcasm).

It's not LOA93 vs Kirby, everyone knows Kirby is not good enough.

Well Jake there is something to said for being an east captain right now. If I get a F/O that wants to partake in an illegal job action, I can say no. If I get an insubordinate F/O that does not know the the book, I can deal with him. It's not as good as it used to be, but better than the other options I see today.

I want you to tell me exactly the dollar amount we could get in a contract today, because the Kirby is exactly the highest that is there today, as confirmed by...........Mr Kirby.

 

[SparrowHawk]

And you're running on empty.

Binding means binding. When three sides agree and one then reneges, then you have a problem. If the airline and the union were to agree on a contract, then the airline backed out, that would be equally wrong. Creating an entirely new union just to get out of a signed agreement is a chicken sh** move.

OK, Fair enough, you & I agree that it is a chicken feces maneuver on a moral/ethical basis. Like you I tend to stand by a deal I make and you don't need a contract, although given the climate of the times I do very little business on a handshake anymore. My point was strictly legal and in that regard this crap happens by the hour around the world.

As for FF programs, the company can change it any time they want, its not a contract, its not an agreement, its a marketing tool. Its subject to change all the time. All airlines make changes to their FF programs.

Really? You should know that. Its not an implied contract. Please, show me how the company and the FF''s jointly signed a contract on a FF program.

When you join a FF program you electronically sign an agreement. One governed by the rules set forth in the Dividend Miles Handbook, Pure and simple it's a contract. Now the reality is that in said contract there are paragraphs where it clearly states that as a customer you agree to the terms and conditions set forth in the DM handbook and they are subject to change at the sole discretion of the company. So answer me this. If no contract exists how in the hell did the issue end up before the SCOTUS?

U.S. Supreme Court
AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC. v. WOLENS, ___ U.S. ___ (1995)
AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC. v. WOLENS, ___ U.S. ___ (1995)

AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC., PETITIONER v. MYRON WOLENS ET AL.
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF ILLINOIS

No. 93-1286.

Argued November 1, 1994
Decided January 18, 1995

USA: Supreme Court refuses to hear Frequent Flyer Depot case
Posted on: 31 March, 2010 - 11:17
By: Michael Wukoschitz

American Airlines' frequent flyer program prohibits the purchase or sale of the program’s mileage credit or award tickets and makes such mileage or tickets void if transferred for cash or other consideration. American sued Frequent Flyer Depot, and its owners for brokering AAdvantage mileage credit and award tickets. In September 2008, the trial court granted the airline’s request for a temporary injunction and issued an order enjoining the brokers from purchasing, brokering, bartering, selling, offering for sale or soliciting AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets through the completion of the trial. The appeals court rejected Frequent Flyer Depot’s appeal and held that the airline’s contract with its frequent flyer program members is based on mutuality of obligation and thus is enforceable.

The US Supreme Court has now refused to lift the temporary injunction against Frequent Flyer Depot.

Case: Frequent Flyer Depot v. American Airlines, 09-815

Anything you'd like to add?
Read the decision Here

 

[Pi brat]

Sure.

And I think the majority of you will vote it in.

You may be right, we'll see in, oh, 5-7 years. That's a good thing because maybe a few more years in the right seat will teach you something. If you are lucky enough to fly with guys like LS.

 

[toganoflex]

You may be right, we'll see in, oh, 5-7 years. That's a good thing because maybe a few more years in the right seat will teach you something. If you are lucky enough to fly with guys like LS.

Nic and a new contract will be here long before that.

And then I'll be able to head out to CLT to take my Captain's seat.

 

[toganoflex]

Yeah right, being an Reserve LOA 93 Captain is a great job.

The company owns you for 22 days a month at $125 per hour and don't forget the 21 vacation days and great trips you get to fly.

That's why every F/O jumps at the first chance he gets to be a Reserve Captain (sarcasm).

It's not LOA93 vs Kirby, everyone knows Kirby is not good enough.

Did you get that Pi?

That's one of your own talking to you.

 

[nic4us]

FYI, S29 of our CBA does not allow West pilots to be assessed for anything relating to a work action. If USAPA needs money to cover the litigation that results from this injection, you east guys are on the hook for it alone.

We cannot be terminated for not paying theses assessments nor can we be put into bad standing.

Further, the cost of this is not germane to contract enforcement or collective bargaining.

 

[767jetz]

If as someone stated the number of pilots participating is as low as 100 out of 5,000 the court may or may not be inclined to issue an injunction. What is interesting is what would happen if the injunction were not granted at the hearing???

Untrue. n UA's caseit was I think 6 pilots. Now even CO pilots are bound by the injunction. 11,000 pilots subject to an injunction due to the actions of a half dozen. If it is believed to be a concerted effort by the union, it doesn't matter how many pilots participated in the havoc.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Nic and a new contract will be here long before that.

And then I'll be able to head out to CLT to take my Captain's seat.

I wouldn't count my Captains pay just yet. Has anyone stopped to think about the ramifications if the Injunction is granted?

US could win the battle and lose the war. I don't know how many hard core USAPA members there are and neither does anyone else. But suppose the fence sitters get royally pissed and decide it's the Company's fault, then what? I've said it long before this that the pilots squabble has the power to sink US Airways. Could this be another Eastern Airlines? I for one think it could.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[toganoflex]

I wouldn't count my Captains pay just yet. Has anyone stopped to think about the ramifications if the Injunction is granted?

US could win the battle and lose the war. I don't know how many hard core USAPA members there are and neither does anyone else. But suppose the fence sitters get royally pissed and decide it's the Company's fault, then what? I've said it long before this that the pilots squabble has the power to sink US Airways. Could this be another Eastern Airlines? I for one think it could.

Be careful what you wish for.

They've had plenty of time and opportunities to get pissed.

Let me guess, its for real this time?

 

[toganoflex]

Hmmm, May 1st.

What a coincidence. Now where's that chart I posted.

===================

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