TERM SHEET DURATION........

[aapitbull]

Found this part of the article very interesting:

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"The only thing I have in front of me," he said, "is whether to reject a collective bargaining agreement. You're all still stuck with each other. You still have to negotiate new agreements."
Even if Lane abrogated agreements with the pilots, flight attendants and transport workers, American would, nonetheless, have to come up with consensual agreements with its unions.
"I urge -- and I cannot urge this any more strongly -- that the parties resolve this where need to resolve this. The negotiating table," said Lane. "Regardless of what I do, you're going to have to do it anyway."
Mediation is due to start next week between American and the labor groups before another bankruptcy judge and Lane would like a resolution that does not require him to make a decision.
"I'll do it even if I'm reluctant to do it," he said.
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I'll be honest, this sounds to me like AA would be compelled to negotiate a deal even if the judge rules in their favor and this goes totally against what we were being told leading up to the vote. If there is in fact a 6 yr term imposed, maybe the judge means eventually, they will need to negotiate a new deal, well that could be 6 months or 6 years from now. I wish we could get more clarity on this issue, it has been beaten to death and we still don't know for sure.

Read more here: http://www.star-tele...y#storylink=cpy​

Now even you can see that the twu lied to you in hopes of selling a 6 year screwing, maybe now you will sign a card, I doubt it but we shall see

 

[aapitbull]

Judge Lane took the analogy a step further.

"Not only isn't this a game that can be won by playing, it's also a destructive game to play," Lane said. "It forces parties who otherwise would hope to have a long-term relationship to criticize each other, often harshly. There are bruised feelings."
Lane said the parties are "stuck with each other," explaining that, while the abrogation process allows AMR to temporarily impose unilateral labor terms, the sides must ultimately negotiate consensual, long-term deals.

Finally the judge spills the dirty little secret, Why because he can see the Pilots, F/A's & M&R know this and are ready to go all the way to the mat if required.

 

[chris perry]

Your right Bob,If your not in the fight you can't throw punches.Sometimes you have fight, win ,loose or draw...People just don't realize how bad this is going to get years down the road.

 

[xUT]

Nope not at all, just cant believe how many ostriches are on this board.

I lived this chapter 11 nightmare twice at US and we had an abrogation happen.

You were 'confused' and voted in the last TA.
Skert shitless, just like the UA M&R did in their last BK TA.
UA voted in their last TA 53%-47%
I am a proud 47% er.
Your 'sage advice' is what happened to 'you' and not cast in stone as no one challenged the hypothesis.
JMHO, keep your 'sage advice' as it has become redundant and anti productive.
I support the AA folks for having the tenacity and knowledge to kick back the BS that companies use to manipulate employees.
B) xUT

 

[Mr Red]

I have to wonder is Local 514 now going thousands of booklets of the things that I've said that were right? It seems that the Lawyers for the Unions repeated the same things I've been saying for months.

I would have mentioned you Bob,I don't think I needed to.The people that were wrong know it,and know you were right.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I have to wonder is Local 514 now going thousands of booklets of the things that I've said that were right? It seems that the Lawyers for the Unions repeated the same things I've been saying for months.

I think Mullings still has that look on his face when he told the media "We were hoping it would pass." Also I would like to point out that Mr. E stated AA could impose a six year deal. I notice he has not shown up to eat any crow. Glad you are on our side Bob. But you won't be getting a birthday card from Little, Mullings, Hewett or any of the other international stooges.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It's a little early for any crow eating...

How did the Judge define "temporary"? You know that 1113 contains two parts - one for temporary cuts in employee contracts with a specific amount of time the cuts can last, and the other for longer term cuts - right?. A company files one of two versions of a 1113 motion, depending on which it's seeking and AA filed the motion for the longer term cuts. So how long is the Judge's "temporary"? A month, 6 months, 2 years, 6 years? Can anyone point out term he actually said that he meant by "temporary"?

Jim

 

[iluvaa]

hey tool point is he said keep negotiating

you said that wouldnt happen

 

[BoeingBoy]

No, what he is quoted as saying is either "Regardless of what I do, you're going to have to do it anyway" or "the sides must ultimately negotiate consensual, long-term deals."

I don't see the words "keep negotiating" in there, do you. Yes, AA "ultimately" will have to reach consensual agreements with the unionized employees - but when is "ultimately"? Yes, AA is "going to have to do it anyway" but when? Again, show me where he's put a time limit on it...

You can read into it whatever you want, but don't try to argue that you can read the Judge's mind and therefore know with absolutely certainty what he meant when he said those things.

Jim

 

[aapitbull]

No, what he is quoted as saying is either "Regardless of what I do, you're going to have to do it anyway" or "the sides must ultimately negotiate consensual, long-term deals."

I don't see the words "keep negotiating" in there, do you. Yes, AA "ultimately" will have to reach consensual agreements with the unionized employees - but when is "ultimately"? Yes, AA is "going to have to do it anyway" but when? Again, show me where he's put a time limit on it...

You can read into it whatever you want, but don't try to argue that you can read the Judge's mind and therefore know with absolutely certainty what he meant when he said those things.

Jim

Ok i get you do not believe have it your way. the M&R line locals hired a law firm from Chicago to represent us at the BK hearing the Intl got mad and would not let them work for us we asked them for a opinion on what the judge could do their answer was as long as the BK was going on he could impose any terms the company ask for as long as they had met the requirements of 1113 in his opinion.However anything he imposed would revert back to the NMB the moment the BK was gaveled closed. At that point he is no longer in control and the RLA takes control if you have not agreed to new terms anything under the RLA is possible up to and including a 30 day cooling off period.

The problem for AA is that congress changed the BK law and you can no longer stay in BK for 38 months like UAL and the unions are sure to to try to open the door to the merger and other third party offers at the end of Sept there is no set time they could extend past the 22nd of June the ruling but there are hard limits to AA time in BK and he cannot afford to end the BK without consenual agreements in place.

 

[700UW]

You were 'confused' and voted in the last TA.
Skert shitless, just like the UA M&R did in their last BK TA.
UA voted in their last TA 53%-47%
I am a proud 47% er.
Your 'sage advice' is what happened to 'you' and not cast in stone as no one challenged the hypothesis.
JMHO, keep your 'sage advice' as it has become redundant and anti productive.
I support the AA folks for having the tenacity and knowledge to kick back the BS that companies use to manipulate employees.
B) xUT

Wrong, there last chapter 11 was a final offer voted on and voted once.

Your are the one who is confused, the 2nd vote occurred in 2002 in the first chapter 11 case.

 

[Bob Owens]

It's a little early for any crow eating...

How did the Judge define "temporary"? You know that 1113 contains two parts - one for temporary cuts in employee contracts with a specific amount of time the cuts can last, and the other for longer term cuts - right?. A company files one of two versions of a 1113 motion, depending on which it's seeking and AA filed the motion for the longer term cuts. So how long is the Judge's "temporary"? A month, 6 months, 2 years, 6 years? Can anyone point out term he actually said that he meant by "temporary"?

Jim

Wrong
It contains many parts but I believe you are referring to e and c. e allows the court to impose temporary cuts but the company has to prove that its in imminent danger of ceasing operations unless it gets those cuts, and like I said they are temporary. C allows the court to abrogate the contract, not impose anything.

There is no contract so it allows the company to impose. However for all other workers who are not airlines the unions can resort to self help immediately. So should we, with or without the direction of our weak kneed leaders who allowed this double standard to be created in the first place.

We are under the RLA, the RLA was created by the Rail Unions and the Industry. Bankruptcies existed before the creation of the RLA and the authors obviously had that in mind when they wrote into the RLA that if the carrier unliaterally imposes terms that the union could resort to self help. No sect 6, no asking to be released, quid pro quo. Our legislators realized that Rails frequently went BK, they also knew that they would love to rewrite contracts unilaterally, they also knew that even with the backing of the Court system the Rail Unions who never had any illusions where the guys in Black robes stood, would rebel and shut down the rails. An injunction cant make the trains move. So they included Sect 1167 that said that if a RR went BK they had to go through the process as stated in the RLA to make changes. The only way they could get the contract abrogated is to get released by the NMB and both sides could resort to self help after 30 days or a PEB. In fact the first PEB occured during a recession where hard pressed Rails were demanding cuts in compensation, this occured in 1938.

The PEB concluded that rail workers should not be "indirectly taxed to keep the roads running... [that during] sudden crises of short duration... the shock....must be taken up by ownership and not by the wage structure." Understanding the Railway Labor Act ISBN978-0911382-59-4

Imagine how they would look at a carrier who is saying that they want to impose cuts so they can earn over 17% profits!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Lets see. in court the pilots lawyers said we continue to negotiate
The Company agreed with that statement.
The UCC said "All roads lead back to negotaitions
The Judge said it
But we have an anonymous pilot, an IAM rep from USAIRWAYS, and some guy who claims to be a lawyer and calls himself FWAAA saying that abrogation means that the company can impose a new contract on us and tell us "see you in six years".

If the company refuses to negotiate then the NMB would release us and we could legally strike.

Let is know how that Crow tastse, like chicken or duck?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Unlike you, Bob, if I end up being wrong I'll readily admit it. However, I'll leave the crowing about being right until the facts are actually in place instead of counting those chickens before they hatch. How's that retro pay you promised after AA filed bankruptcy working out?

Jim

 

[Bob Owens]

Unlike you, Bob, if I end up being wrong I'll readily admit it. However, I'll leave the crowing about being right until the facts are actually in place instead of counting those chickens before they hatch. How's that retro pay you promised after AA filed bankruptcy working out?

Jim

Show some proof to back up your claim that I promised anything Companyboy.