Things that may happen in a merger.

[cleardirect]

Then I pose this question to you. If Doug agreed to pay AA pilots delta +3% as we are hearing before any type of integration has occured. And that any joint contract must be ratified to take effect. Why on earth would the 10000 or so AA pilots ever vote to ratify anything that included the US east or west group in thier list? They already have the best pay that Doug is going to offer, so all they would be doing is voting to put people above them on their list. With the press release that the APA put out and the one Doug put out It does not appear either east or west is part of that. Doug knows that he can negotiate in good faith from that point on and be pretty much guaranteed that he will never have to deal with a ratified T/A.

I would love to see the agreement that he signed with AA unions. If it is in effect a contract that takes effect on day one of the integration, he has just created the above scenario.

You guys are very short sighted. Parker wants a merged company. He has played the game to long of separate ops. He has put a bunch of money on the table. He is not going to do that unless it is contingent on a completed deal.

Any T/A is gong to have tight language and hard deadlines. 10000 AA pilots wanting a deal is going to override your 3000 whining east pilots. We will be APA and go on their contract. You may not even get a vote. There will be no parity it will be a signed and ratified contract.

Parker is done playing with the east.

 

[cleardirect]

Interesting, 7 year fence. Agreed to by whom? Does not matter how irrelevant you think USAPA is they ARE mine and your union in this merger. Doug telling APA 7 year fences really means nothing. What he can do is agree to pay APA whatever he wants. Fences etc fall into the union side of things. So once Doug pays them Delta+3 why ratify anything else?

Now if you have seen IN WRITING from the company in a legally binding document that says the Delta +3% is only good upon joint US/AWA/AA contract then thats a different story. I suspect knowing Tempe's love to squeeze a dollar that it does not. All he needs is APA to be on board to get the merger done, he does not need east or west for that.

Have you seen such a document?

i suspect we will end up seeing a 3 pilot group airline for a good many years if this comes about. Doug has lots of practice running a 2 group one already.

The pay rates would come with a ratified contract. Parker has not talked to usapa. That contract would apply only to APA pilots. If we want those rates we join APA that becomes our contract and M/B handles the seniority integration. We don't get a vote.

 

[cleardirect]

I think Parker is intending to operate the new AA with 3 separate pilot groups. If you read the F/A scope language in the latest TA, that is exactly what he intends on doing. Not only that, since US Holding would be buying AA, I would imagine that no change of control would take place, leaving the east pilots stuck with LOA 93 wages. I found it interesting that in Bates letter to the AA pilots, he never once mentioned USAirways pilots or USAPA. Frankly, I really don't have a problem with a 7 year fence, as a matter of fact, it is working quite well right now. Parker will run one airline, with most employee groups merged, with the 3 pilot groups separate for another 7. It is just another set of books!

Do you guys not understand what a fence is?

Parker is going to put this thing together quick. No more separate ops. No 3 pilot groups. One airline one pilots group. The 7 year fence will be us airways pilots fenced off of AA wide bodies. Not base fences, not seniority fences, if this happens move to will be in CLT and currently DFW based pilots can bid CLT.

 

[EastUS1]

Now if you have seen IN WRITING from the company in a legally binding document that says the Delta +3% is only good upon joint US/AWA/AA contract then thats a different story. I suspect knowing Tempe's love to squeeze a dollar that it does not. All he needs is APA to be on board to get the merger done, he does not need east or west for that.

"I suspect knowing Tempe's love to squeeze a dollar that it does not. All he needs is APA to be on board to get the merger done, he does not need east or west for that."

I had those thoughts as well. "Interesting Times" indeed.

 

[Move2CLT]

Do you guys not understand what a fence is?

Parker is going to put this thing together quick. No more separate ops. No 3 pilot groups. One airline one pilots group. The 7 year fence will be us airways pilots fenced off of AA wide bodies. Not base fences, not seniority fences, if this happens move to will be in CLT and currently DFW based pilots can bid CLT.

Hell ya!!

I said three years and it looks like I'll be looking for a house in Davidson in about two years!!!

You easties have a realtor you can point me too?

 

[767one]

Since Doug Parker has a bad history of talking out of both sides of this mouth, I wonder if this rumor will amount to a hill of beans. I thought the same reading the press release..where do you US guys stand and what are you to gain? It seemed like we were getting something for nothing they way they all talked today. A lot of us aren't dumb enough to take the press releases at face value, nor do we have the utmost faith in our union leadership half the time and any type of management...especially one that cut his teeth at AA!

Looking at the press releases I thought that it was too good to be true. Maybe it is too good to be true. The devil is in the details. Details please!

 

[usa1]

NEW AMERICAN AIRLINES

David Bates, president of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents the pilots, said in a letter to members that a combined carrier would be branded American Airlines and be based in Fort Worth, Texas, which is where AMR is currently based. US Airways has its headquarters in Tempe, Arizona.

The new carrier would remain in the one world global airline alliance and would be comparable in scope and size with rivals United Airlines and Delta Air Lines Inc, which overtook AMR in size after their own mergers, Bates said.

He said American's orders for narrow-body aircraft would proceed and the former US Airways system would be aligned with American Airlines routes to add more cities.

http://news.yahoo.com/amr-unions-want-chance-u-air-merger-080259711--sector.html

 

[767one]

You guys are very short sighted. Parker wants a merged company. He has played the game to long of separate ops. He has put a bunch of money on the table. He is not going to do that unless it is contingent on a completed deal.

Any T/A is gong to have tight language and hard deadlines. 10000 AA pilots wanting a deal is going to override your 3000 whining east pilots. We will be APA and go on their contract. You may not even get a vote. There will be no parity it will be a signed and ratified contract.

Parker is done playing with the east.

You say NO parity? Would this be a good thing for you?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Interesting, 7 year fence. Agreed to by whom? Does not matter how irrelevant you think USAPA is they ARE mine and your union in this merger. Doug telling APA 7 year fences really means nothing. What he can do is agree to pay APA whatever he wants. Fences etc fall into the union side of things. So once Doug pays them Delta+3 why ratify anything else?

Now if you have seen IN WRITING from the company in a legally binding document that says the Delta +3% is only good upon joint US/AWA/AA contract then thats a different story. I suspect knowing Tempe's love to squeeze a dollar that it does not. All he needs is APA to be on board to get the merger done, he does not need east or west for that.

Have you seen such a document?

i suspect we will end up seeing a 3 pilot group airline for a good many years if this comes about. Doug has lots of practice running a 2 group one already.

Everyone is going under the assumption that Doug intends to pay all of the airline delta+3%. I think that is wishful thinking given their track record.

The 7 year fence will effectively insulate the AA group from the infighting going on with the East and West pilots. USAPA is not going anywhere until the Nicolau abomination is resolved, and Parker is estimating it will take up to 7 years. That's all that is going on.

During that time, the East and West will be working under their current contracts. The Delta +3 will not cross the fence for 7 years. Nor will APA cross that fence any sooner.

View attachment 9434

This look appeals

Looks like Shamu.

This airline will not be run with three separate pilot groups. The NMB will declare the APA the carrier's CBA (without a vote) and we will vote, as ONE union, on the contract that Doug has negotiated with the APA.

That contract will pass because the west will vote for it as will the APA.

That's the reason USAPA is never mentioned. Because they just don't matter.

Oh, sure. Like the NMB has the power to impose contracts at a company's whim. The NMB, the governing body that is in place to protect collective bargaining, will ignore its primary mandate just to satisfy some idiot's brain diarrhea. I don't think so, boo.

Do you guys not understand what a fence is?

Parker is going to put this thing together quick. No more separate ops. No 3 pilot groups. One airline one pilots group. The 7 year fence will be us airways pilots fenced off of AA wide bodies. Not base fences, not seniority fences, if this happens move to will be in CLT and currently DFW based pilots can bid CLT.

You don't get to define the fence. It's wishful thinking on your part, nothing more. A 7 year fence is just that; it's not a one way street for AA pilots to bid US crew bases and more than for US pilots to bid AA widebodies.

 

[UPNAWAY]

Did this really need to involve into another pilot thread? I was attempting to touch an the possible impact in other areas.

Like I think Reno Rez would be a goner.

 

[Phoenix]

The 7 year fence will effectively insulate the AA group from the infighting going on with the East and West pilots. USAPA is not going anywhere until the Nicolau abomination is resolved, and Parker is estimating it will take up to 7 years. That's all that is going on.

During that time, the East and West will be working under their current contracts. The Delta +3 will not cross the fence for 7 years. Nor will APA cross that fence any sooner.

...

Certainly possible... If the East and West were denied pay parity and told they couldn't have the AA rates until they came to a resolution on "their internal dispute" to their SLI, it would motivate both sides to work toward the middle.. They would figure it out real quick like and a membership vote would sail through, even if you restored the "veto style vote" that existed under the TA... but that would delay any real merger.. why wait..

It would appear to me that a new TA would pass a collective vote weather it had DOH, NIC. or a three way SLI...

What method is best for the company to prove it can bring about the best/effective merger the soonest?

 

[cleardirect]

You say NO parity? Would this be a good thing for you?

No, not getting parity is not good for me or you or any us airways pilot. Thus the pressure from the company to get the merger done. There is not going to be this separate ops anymore. The separate ops idea was the east's way of avoiding the Nicolau. AA does not care about the Nicolau they want a contract after 5 years of waiting. They are not going to wait 7 years more.

Parker has offered AA a contract not us airways. If we want a pay raise it comes with a completed merger. That means single certificate, joint contract, one union and a single arbitrated seniority list.

M/B is arbitration. DOH is not a factor in that process. Nicolau will be the us airways pilots list. Count on it. Start getting used to that idea. Also start getting used to the idea that an integrated AA list is not going to be DOH either.

 

[Claxon]

No, not getting parity is not good for me or you or any us airways pilot. Thus the pressure from the company to get the merger done. There is not going to be this separate ops anymore. The separate ops idea was the east's way of avoiding the Nicolau. AA does not care about the Nicolau they want a contract after 5 years of waiting. They are not going to wait 7 years more.

Parker has offered AA a contract not us airways. If we want a pay raise it comes with a completed merger. That means single certificate, joint contract, one union and a single arbitrated seniority list.

M/B is arbitration. DOH is not a factor in that process. Nicolau will be the us airways pilots list. Count on it. Start getting used to that idea. Also start getting used to the idea that an integrated AA list is not going to be DOH either.

Start getting use to the fact the combined DAL NWA contingent is using this dysfunctional airline as exhibit A as to why it should NOT take place. Your CEO is not capable of running what he has, let alone go forward with a bigger project. There are other allies in this fight, including AA management and shareholders, and the rest of the airline group. There is NO reason to allow Parker a shot a running anything more that what he has now until he shows he can integrate an operation successfully. You may think he is smart running a dysfunctional flight ops, and think it makes sense. The rest of the sane world pays their employees more, and is sick of this operation. It is time to end it till someone is smart enough in Tempe to take care of everyone. The Nic is exhibit A as to why this airline is stalled endlessly until it gets dumped. If the rest of the AA group wants to merge and save their hides, it is time to get them behind the failed integration of eastern and western ops. Total failure, stuck in quicksand. It is the one and only obstacle and it WILL be removed shortly. It takes a CBA to make Nic happen, and that will never happen without AA now. This will in itself kill Nic.

 

[nic4us]

Start getting use to the fact the combined DAL NWA contingent is using this dysfunctional airline as exhibit A as to why it should NOT take place. Your CEO is not capable of running what he has, let alone go forward with a bigger project. There are other allies in this fight, including AA management and shareholders, and the rest of the airline group. There is NO reason to allow Parker a shot a running anything more that what he has now until he shows he can integrate an operation successfully. You may think he is smart running a dysfunctional flight ops, and think it makes sense. The rest of the sane world pays their employees more, and is sick of this operation. It is time to end it till someone is smart enough in Tempe to take care of everyone. The Nic is exhibit A as to why this airline is stalled endlessly until it gets dumped. If the rest of the AA group wants to merge and save their hides, it is time to get them behind the failed integration of eastern and western ops. Total failure, stuck in quicksand. It is the one and only obstacle and it WILL be removed shortly. It takes a CBA to make Nic happen, and that will never happen without AA now. This will in itself kill Nic.

You have a gross misunderstanding of the TA.

The Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC, and unless you can figure out a way to get "the pilots in the employemnt of AWA" represented in a a seperate manner outside of usapa, that will never change.

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Can we please not have this turn into yet another pilot senior discussion? There is a thread with over 4500 posts, mostly devoted to that topic: http://airlineforums.com/topic/49837-us-pilots-labor-discussion/page__st__38016

Look, it's not that those of us who are not pilots do not care. But I venture to surmise that we are very tired indeed of the subject.

Let's keep this one on what might happen in an AA/US combo --- on topics such as routes, equipment types, what might happen to the W/O express carriers, IT issue, etc.

There is a great of stuff on which to speculate; pretty, pretty, please: no pilot issues.


'kay?