this is simply an emotional response to tough times

[bigjets]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Bad blood between labor and management goes back for decades. While it didn’t start with Horton, he didn’t end it, either. American’s top-down, button-down culture needs a reset and transfusion. Union leaders have demanded a change at the top, and about 7,500 American pilots signed a petition declaring no confidence in management.[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Horton supporters say this is simply an emotional response to tough times. Fact is, that’s reason enough to make a move. Here’s another: US Air’s Doug Parker and his team look like an upgrade, not just a dose of fresh air.[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]http://www.dallasnews.com/business/columnists/mitchell-schnurman/20121217-mitchell-schnurman-the-case-for-an-american-us-air-merger.ece[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]AA management still doesn't get it, to say this an emotional responce to tough times, makes me think that a a management change is needed, or we're going to have the same treatment from management for the rest of my career. They don't seem willing to learn from their past mistakes. [/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]A better response would be " We understand the pilots concern, and we are addressing those concerns to move forward with the New American" [/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Not "oh those pilots are just emotional" because that is what airline pilots are known for "being emotional" think Sully Sullenberger [/background]​

 

[FWAAA]

Parker began his career as an MBA at AA in 1986, just like Horton did a couple years earlier. Both of them worked for Crandall and learned everything they know from him. They're very much alike except that Parker left AA to go work for NW in 1991 (and HP a few years after that). Horton stayed with AA except for his brief stint at AT&T (as he bailed from what looked like a bankrupt AA in 2002).

He was handed the reigns the day the board finally had enough of Arpey's "let's not file Ch 11 and instead wait for everyone else's costs to catch up to ours" nonsense and ordered a bankruptcy filing so that AA could get a level playing field with UA and DL. And since November 29, 2011, AA's unit revenue has grown much faster than UA or US (beaten only by DL). No legacy airline in bankruptcy in years past ever outperformed the competition. Either Horton knows what he's doing or he's just incredibly lucky. The airline analysts all claimed that AA would shrink by 10% to 20% in 2012, because the other airlines had done so in years past. AA shrank by about 2% in 2012 from 2011 and has announced huge plans for growth. Lower-cost airlines tend to grow, while higher cost airlines tend to shrink.

For a decade, AA has been a high-cost airline despite the 2003 concessions (thanks to everyone else's bankruptcies). Low-cost airlines grew at AA's expense. Despite its very low labor costs, US is a high-cost airline, helping to explain why US hasn't grown since its merger with HP in 2005. And now the employees think that marrying low-wage, high-cost US to higher-wage (but lower cost) AA will help AA? It will certainly help the low-wage US employees, as it will take huge raises to get them to AA's payscales.

You posted:

Horton supporters say this is simply an emotional response to tough times. Fact is, that’s reason enough to make a move. Here’s another: US Air’s Doug Parker and his team look like an upgrade, not just a dose of fresh air.

How, exactly, with some specifics, is Parker & Co an "upgrade?" over Horton & Co?

Looks to me like they're the same, except that since 1986, Horton has three fewer DUI convictions than the incoming CEO, Doug Parker (two while at AA in North Texas and the third at US the day the DL creditors turned down his takeover offer). To some, the profits US has reported are remarkable, but if you look at the wage scale for the pilots and FAs, it soon becomes apparent how Parker has managed to turn in some profitable years - it's on the backs of the pilots and FAs. Had US paid its pilots and FAs AA-style wages and benefits from 2005-present, US would have had no profits.

I just don't see how Parker is "a breath of fresh air," let alone "an upgrade" over Horton & Co. He learned from Crandall, just like the guy everyone hates. Of course everyone hates the guy who demands (and gets) bankruptcy concessions to wages and benefits. That's an emotional response (and an understandable one). Perhaps you could list some of the ways (with some specifics) that he represents better management than Horton. That would differentiate you from the Laura Glading-style emotional "he's better than Horton" love-fest.

 

[wings396]

One thing that I would like to add in reference to US being high cost. The driving factor in most of this can be attributed to the shorter average stage length of US's flight segments. Short hops have always hurt US given that they make up a good portion of their network. The addition of AA's long haul flying will balance this out to cost that is inline with the others.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Everybody has lost. The customers, the employees, the creditors, the investors. Everybody but the AA management team and Board of Directors has lost. So tell me where is managements participation in these "rough times"?

I could care less about some morally deficient charlatans opinion about emotion.

 

[cf6mech]

Way,...way to much bad blood,...people outside of AA or sitting in a cubicle at Centre port haven't a clue how deep the management/labor/ distrust really is, its funny/odd how outsiders view this as just a recent or knee jerk reaction to BK,...I'm sure the general consences is " we don't care what the numbers show we will take our chances"....most everyone I know feels completely robbed by this management team.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

CRANDALL,.........and ONLY......(uncle) Bobby CRANDALL could pull AA 'Back-from-the-brink !
(Parker/US Air be Damned) !!!! (NOTHING against the thousands of GOOD Folks who work for US Air) !!!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

For a decade, AA has been a high-cost airline despite the 2003 concessions (thanks to everyone else's bankruptcies). Low-cost airlines grew at AA's expense. Despite its very low labor costs, US is a high-cost airline, helping to explain why US hasn't grown since its merger with HP in 2005. And now the employees think that marrying low-wage, high-cost US to higher-wage (but lower cost) AA will help AA? It will certainly help the low-wage US employees, as it will take huge raises to get them to AA's payscales.

The question is why were they "high cost"? Could it have been facilities such at RDU, BNA and scores of others, including houses in London, grounded airplanes and other things that AA was dumping money into that they did not need or use? Lease rates that were higher than their peers for similarly valued equipment? Sure you guys zero in on labor, because the difference was obvious but ignored the fact that AA did more in house which made such compararsions and apples to oranges match up, but it sounded good. Outsourcing doesnt eliminate the cost, it just shifts it to another spot. Even now after BK AA is keeping most of their work in house, but their super low labor rates are slowly grinding down their operations and putting a drag on what would be an even higher rebound after finally cutting all those liabilities they should have cut back in 2003.

They recently got the #1 spot for the rudest Flight Attendants, most of their mechanics on the line are extremely dissatisfied, however our low wages have kept us living week to week for the last 9 years so we arent going to leave till we have something else, and we are leaving, sure its a trickle right now but every week I hear of another long time coworker leaving, some to WN, some to UPS, some to the MTA, even some to Jet Blue, the smarter ones are taking advantage of the down time and studying for other careers. We are leaving, and a lot more are already gone if not in the physical sense.

Even new planes break, and when you have mechanics whose heart isn't into it, who no longer look at a broken plane and an EDT as a challenge you end up with at the very least a delay,or, more often than before, a cancellation. So for the $20k a year they save how much are they losing in delays and cancellations? How many extra mechanics do they have to keep on payroll to make it through the day?

I had to laugh when Hortons team recently claimed that they have achieved labor peace for the first time in 30 years. Really, why, because they bought off a few officials and got them to maneauver a deal into place that 80% of the guys who work their live trips rejected? There will be no peace. The deal has already sparked a war within the group, as three unions, and if their is a merger maybe fourth, vie for the right to represent the mechanics. AA got a deal jammed down our throats with votes from people who left, so the majority of people who remain rejected the deal.

So they think they got labor peace? They got their victory, they got submission and they defeated us, but do they really think we are up to helping AA battle UA, WN and Delta? Why would we want AA to do better than than them when we are looking at them as potential employers? With no pension, no retiree medical, the lowest paid time off in the industry this is a place with no future, just a place to collect a check for now. Sure they are saying that their plan will raise most of their current pilots pay by 50% by 2017 but what about mechanics? Whats in our future at AA other than less vacation, less Holidays, less sick time, more expensive medical and at best an average wage that would still leave us at the very bottom once those things are factored in?

Slaves dont make good soldiers, they have a tendancy to turn their weapons on their master instead of their masters opponent.

 

[eolesen]

Way,...way to much bad blood,...people outside of AA or sitting in a cubicle at Centre port haven't a clue how deep the management/labor/ distrust really is, its funny/odd how outsiders view this as just a recent or knee jerk reaction to BK,...I'm sure the general consences is " we don't care what the numbers show we will take our chances"....most everyone I know feels completely robbed by this management team.

Oh, such ignorant bliss. Even if 100% of management down to the supervisors was changed out tomorrow, I can guarantee that in another year or two, you'd all be back here complaining about whoever is in charge...

CRANDALL,.........and ONLY......(uncle) Bobby CRANDALL could pull AA 'Back-from-the-brink !
(Parker/US Air be Damned) !!!! (NOTHING against the thousands of GOOD Folks who work for US Air) !!!!!!!

A little early to be drinking, Bears. Crandall wouldn't do anything different than what Horton has done. He just wouldn't have spent as much time listening to the bearchit. He would have imposed contracts and given unions two fingers...

 

[Jager]

I’d have to disagree with you Eleo..

I know plenty of people in Upper Management and Sabre that wouldn’t work without a quarterly bonus to make them “happy”.. So it all boils down to “da money”

I’m leaving so consider my position superfluous on these company relations.. But along the way, I picked up a degree, owned my own business for several years, and can verify the results of “Top Tier Compensation” in relevance to quality of work and attitude..

I also understand how paying unskilled labor “over the top dollar” can kill your balance sheets, and conversely, have witnessed premium compensation for essential positions, pay dividends.

I’ve sat down with Bobby C back in the 90’s when he use to actually come around and shoot the chit with us.. Where are the new “Leaders” today?.. Out of touch and scared to communicate..

Give me 6 months and a class 1 station and ‘rule of the roost’ and I will produce a small sample of American Airlines Production and Pride.. The way is was in 2000-2001..

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bad blood between labor and management goes back for decades. While it didn’t start with Horton, he didn’t end it, either. American’s top-down, button-down culture needs a reset and transfusion. Union leaders have demanded a change at the top, and about 7,500 American pilots signed a petition declaring no confidence in management.

Horton supporters say this is simply an emotional response to tough times. Fact is, that’s reason enough to make a move. Here’s another: US Air’s Doug Parker and his team look like an upgrade, not just a dose of fresh air.

http://www.dallasnew...-air-merger.ece

AA management still doesn't get it, to say this an emotional responce to tough times, makes me think that a a management change is needed, or we're going to have the same treatment from management for the rest of my career. They don't seem willing to learn from their past mistakes.

A better response would be " We understand the pilots concern, and we are addressing those concerns to move forward with the New American"

Not "oh those pilots are just emotional" because that is what airline pilots are known for "being emotional" think Sully Sullenberger

As long as you and everyone else think you are going to trade in your mgmt team for a better one to your benefit then you will be disappointed, regardless of who becomes your leader.
AA’s problems today developed over a number of years and they won’t be fixed by anyone in just a few years.

He was handed the reigns the day the board finally had enough of Arpey's "let's not file Ch 11 and instead wait for everyone else's costs to catch up to ours" nonsense and ordered a bankruptcy filing so that AA could get a level playing field with UA and DL. And since November 29, 2011, AA's unit revenue has grown much faster than UA or US (beaten only by DL). No legacy airline in bankruptcy in years past ever outperformed the competition. Either Horton knows what he's doing or he's just incredibly lucky. The airline analysts all claimed that AA would shrink by 10% to 20% in 2012, because the other airlines had done so in years past. AA shrank by about 2% in 2012 from 2011 and has announced huge plans for growth. Lower-cost airlines tend to grow, while higher cost airlines tend to shrink.

For a decade, AA has been a high-cost airline despite the 2003 concessions (thanks to everyone else's bankruptcies). Low-cost airlines grew at AA's expense. Despite its very low labor costs, US is a high-cost airline, helping to explain why US hasn't grown since its merger with HP in 2005. And now the employees think that marrying low-wage, high-cost US to higher-wage (but lower cost) AA will help AA? It will certainly help the low-wage US employees, as it will take huge raises to get them to AA's payscales.

Make no mistake, AA has managed its BK better than other carriers- but that is exactly what should have been expected for the last carrier thru the BK process.
A lot of people want to forget that AA still has a very long history of capturing high value business passengers.. it would have been a complete failure of AA mgmt – and likely the death of the company if AA couldn’t have retained that revenue.
But remember also that AA is benefitting to a very great degree because of UA’s operational problems which lasted for months and alienated many business travelers – and it has been a long time since UA has had the business travel preference that AA has.
Finally, as much as you want to argue how much the BK of other carriers has impacted AA – but AA chose its own out of court restructuring process and then didn’t do anything to grow the company after that restructuring. Since you now seem to recognize that growing the company post BK is necessary to gain the benefits of the restructuring, do you now acknowledge AA mgmt’s failure in not using the cuts it gained, most of which were cuts from employees? And do you acknowledge that if AA had properly managed the company after the 2003 cuts, they wouldn’t be in BK today or asking for more cuts from employees?
The last network airline emerged from BK 4 ½ years before AA filed. AA mgmt knew years ago what they had to do in order to succeed but they kept begging from labor and watched competitors grow their presence in AA’s key markets. While you tout what AA has done w/ revenue this year, go back and look at the track record over the past 5 years esp.
AA didn’t need to file for BK because of what other carriers gained in BK. AA filed for BK because AA didn’t manage the company well enough using the cuts it obtained in 2003.

One thing that I would like to add in reference to US being high cost. The driving factor in most of this can be attributed to the shorter average stage length of US's flight segments. Short hops have always hurt US given that they make up a good portion of their network. The addition of AA's long haul flying will balance this out to cost that is inline with the others.

While true, high cost should also translate into high revenues or US should have decided it wasn’t worth staying in those markets.
High costs should have been accompanied by higher revenues and profit margins that were at or above industry average.

CRANDALL,.........and ONLY......(uncle) Bobby CRANDALL could pull AA 'Back-from-the-brink !
(Parker/US Air be Damned) !!!! (NOTHING against the thousands of GOOD Folks who work for US Air) !!!!!!!

Crandall can’t turn AA around any easier than anyone else can. You, like too many others, expect to find a savior, white knight, magic bullet – whatever you want to call it – to save AA from the painful restructuring they now face and which won't end the day they walk out of BK court. It takes years to restructure the airline - and it will take even longer if a merger happens.
Crandall should have made an appearance in 2003-5 if you and others wanted him to turn things around quickly.
No one can eliminate the painful turnaround that AA now faces. The best news for AA’s turnaround remains UA’s problems.

 

[cf6mech]

Oh, such ignorant bliss. Even if 100% of management down to the supervisors was changed out tomorrow, I can guarantee that in another year or two, you'd all be back here complaining about whoever is in charge...



A little early to be drinking, Bears. Crandall wouldn't do anything different than what Horton has done. He just wouldn't have spent as much time listening to the bearchit. He would have imposed contracts and given unions two fingers...

Oh, such pompass blindness to the human element. You get what you pay for. I'm not and have never been a complainer,...In fact I have been accussed by my peers as a company guy, a hitter for the company. Me and numbers more have finally seen our worth to this company..(the light if you will)..you know so very little about the front line worker, but act as a know it all,.....not unlike most of immediate supervision and it runs all the way to the top.It's the management culture at AA and I'm sure you would fit in perfectly,I can see why they hired you or maybe still on their payroll. No respect for the labor force and put the screws to them any chance you get.

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

CRANDALL,.........and ONLY......(uncle) Bobby CRANDALL could pull AA 'Back-from-the-brink !
(Parker/US Air be Damned) !!!! (NOTHING against the thousands of GOOD Folks who work for US Air) !!!!!!!

Good old uncle Bob......as bad as some thought he was, Carty and Arpey were a wake up call that Crandal was not exactly labor's friend, but at least he was smart enough to run an airline.

Oh well, guess hindsite is 20/20

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

Many arguments made on here I don't agree with, but I can see their origins and can appreciate they may be good arguments and in fact correct. Again, I'm wrong more than I'm right. But the one argument that I just will not listen to because of how RIDICULOUS its foundations are is the "Parker will be better and refreshing". Seriously? That is like the womne sleeping with the married guy thinking "he is gonna leave his wife, and then be faithful to me.......he won't cheat on me, he just cheated on his wife because he loves me".

Seriously people, look at Parker's track record with airlines AND labor relations........where is the improvement coming from over Horton? Not going to argue the quality of Horton or his team, but I will argue that FACTS SHOW Parker may not be worse, but sure as hell won't be better......

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

 

[WorldTraveler]

Again, I'm wrong more than I'm right.

from what you have written here, you are more right than not.

 

[Bob Owens]

Oh, such pompass blindness to the human element. You get what you pay for. I'm not and have never been a complainer,...In fact I have been accussed by my peers as a company guy, a hitter for the company. Me and numbers more have finally seen our worth to this company..(the light if you will)..you know so very little about the front line worker, but act as a know it all,.....not unlike most of immediate supervision and it runs all the way to the top.It's the management culture at AA and I'm sure you would fit in perfectly,I can see why they hired you or maybe still on their payroll. No respect for the labor force and put the screws to them any chance you get.

Exactly. And after 9 years of being #### on all the other heavy hitters have finally seen the light as well. That's why AA is doomed. Money talks. What they pay you is their honest opinion of what they think of you and AA thinks that you are worth less than any other airline mechanic. Not only do they think you are worth less as far as hourly pay they think that you don't deserve much time off with your families either so they give us the least amount of paid time off of any airline, after 25 years with AA we still get less paid time off than a non union new hire at Jet Blue. Like you said you get what you pay for, bottom of the industry pay should only get you bottom of the industry performance.