to all usairways pilots

[oldiebutgoody]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/1/2002 3:41:17 PM CRJ/CAPT wrote:

The mainline guys did this to themselves, they do deserve it, and sad to say, but sometimes I look forward to the liquidation.
Steve
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[/blockquote]
Anyone who would wish the end of so many people's livelihoods is less than a person. I am sad that anyone of your calibre is associated in any way with this company or even this country. Have a nice life, you less than human! By the way, are you a veteran? Many mainline pilots are. They laid down their lives to make this country what it is today. What, besides bitterness and vitriole, have you contributed?

 

[fr8tmastr]

So ML pilots have the power to restrict aircraft type to the point of destroying an airline, have the power to force the creation of another airline, at the expense of other WO's but somehow did'nt have enough power to get their fellow group ALPA pilots on to the ML. It's amazing to me that I hear from most ML pilots how they pull for the WO's but when it comes time for a vote or pressure on mgmt. it's just not there. Of the twenty or so ML pilots that have been in my jump seat almost half did not even know that I was a WO and that we did not have jets.

Just for the record, I want U to survive and all the pilots to come back, and that includes the WO pilots.

 

[propjok]

i guess we will go round and round. first of all our flying did not come from us mainline. i hardly think that ewn, flo, hxd, etc are or ever should be flown with a 737. that has been part of the problem. how can you justify flying a nearly empty 737 from clt-fay and paying somebody 100,000 +to do so in the process. second if you think i am a mgt. flunky too bad. you must be a union flunky to think that you guys deserve to make over 300,000 to fly an airplane. as for the guys that tried for a bidirectional flow thru goog for you but not good enough. the wholly boned have always made money. we have allways been profitable for mainline it is inexcusable though that mainline has the gall to institue j4j and belive that they are more important then us. you wanted nothing to do with us in the past now after 10+ yrs. that we finally have the chance to get rjs you gus f. it up and not only give them away to the contract carriers but you wont even let us get them. for that i hope you get what you deserve.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 5:42:20 PM propjok wrote:

for that i hope you get what you deserve.
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[/blockquote]

Tell ya what prop...when you have been in the professional flying biz for 10+ years.....then come talk to us. You are a disgrace to the W/O's I know I was there and most, fortunatly are not like you!!

As to getting what we deserve. I have only been paid for flying for 12 years and I still don't know what deserve means in this biz.

One last note....You do realize that if mainline goes down so do you!! We would love for the RJ's to be at the W/O's......but with current mgmt. it does not appear that will happen. We have not had control over rj's or anything else much in the last year, and were not much better off for the two years before that. Or did you sleep thru class when they were teaching you about bankruptcy back in school.

You are indeed lacking in thought power if you believe that PDT will continue when U fails. And in case you haven't checked the job market lately....it is not good, especially for a punk like yourself with an attitude problem.

I agree that the W/O's have been boned in some areas but I can assure all the Professional W/O pilots out there that it is not because of the rank and file pilot at mainline...75% or so wanted the rj's there and at least 60% or so supported a flowthru for you. There was even a movement with the Junior guys to have the W/O's added to our sen. list. New hires with U fly an RJ then move up that sort of thing. If we survive maybe one day it will happen. Just please do not bring propjok with you. I enjoy flying too much to have some jerk screw up my day.

 

[DakotaHC8]

prop,

Why dont you stop railing upon the rank/file mainline pilots on here and realize that they have as much say in these matters as we do.

You solve nothing by name calling and whining like a four year old (except validating the misguided opinions of the few people at mainline that do think of us as childish)

All you are doing is making things more uncomfortable between our pilot groups and that solves nothing. You really want to sound off, try focusing your ire on a specific person such as Kelly Isom instead of the whole of the airways pilots.

You want to make a point, do so. Just dont rant endlessly about how unfair things are. That's just embarassing the rest of the WO pilots. This is a discussion board, not preschool. Wishing demise upon any other group of pilots if over the top.

You really think it was the intention of the mainline pilot leadership to reenter negotiations and give back even more? You think that they have nothing better to do than pursue some agenda against the WO pilot's. That sounds paranoid and simple-minded.

Why dont you wait to see what happens before you fly off the handle and giving everyone on here so much static?

 

[p.o.-ed w.o.-ed]

Yes, propjok could use a spell checker and some manners, but you should also realize that there is a lot of anger from most pilots at the w.o.'s. We have also had furloughs, PDT is facing more in Jan. Half of ALG was sold in '94, all the F/O's were gone almost overnight, and the seniority list never has made it all of the way back. The money from that sale went into the general kitty. Also,remember the ML MEC's offer of a flowback for a job interview?
Agreed, we shouldn't expand and hire off the street due to obtaining flying from ML. But, all of this RJ flying is not extra flying for us. The turboprops are all leaving and there are no promises that they will even be replaced one-for-one with RJs, and we have to face the possibility of laying off at least all of our F/Os and having at least half of our captains downgraded, all to make room for your pilots because of jets-for-jobs(whose, ours?). That is, so far, much more than ML has suffered, and we have been making money while other divisions have not. We have also all agreed to wage and work rule cuts.
I am stuck with this sorry mess for the rest of my flying career, yes, some of us are over 50. After Cpt. Woerth telling us what a great deal this was, he NOW professes to understand that the entire brand should be considered together.
There needs to be some cooperation, communication and joint planning between all US Airways pilot groups. If this continues, management will have a field day with all of us.

Farming out your flying to a non-union, union busting carrier(Freedom): what are you thinking of?

 

[fr8tmastr]

Another thing on this, some say the ML pilots want RJ's at the WO's but mgmt wont let them. Reality check, the ML mec has been negotiating to get RJ's at MEsa ie Freedom airlines but when asked to put them at the WO the answer from ML mec was NO WAY!!! maybe I'm just biased or maybe I have been beaten like the adopted red headed step child once too often, but to me that statement does not sound like we want the WO's in any part of anything

Again, I want all U group pilots working and U to survive and grow.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

Sadly, mainline MEC has not listened to the pilots for some time. They appear to have their own agenda.....pilot input is not wanted. When I speak of the ML pilot I DO NOT mean our MEC!!

 

[propjok]

i'm sorry i gues 9 yrs in this industry will have to do 4 of which have been spent here at pdt. in those 4 yrs the mainline mec has done nothing for the whollyboned. i was just trying to make a point 4 yrs ago we wanted a flowthru to mainline in return for a full flowdown. if we got the jets back then instead of the contract carriers then all of u pilots would be at the wholly owned carriers with jobs now. however in the process the u mec has managed to screw up again and now has over a 1000+ pilots on the street. if you guys are still holding your breath for mdt i got news for you its going to be a while if ever.bottom line they mest up and now that they mesed up the decide to implement j4j can any of you honestlly tell me that is ok to give jobs to mainline pilots at wholly owned airlines that result in our furloughs. i think not that is preferential treatment. last time i checked it is not allowed under alpa by-laws. i may complain and sound like an a$$ but last time i checked i dont make over 150000+ and complain when i loose a payraise.
i see i cant have a normal conversation with any of you but then again what did i expect from a bunch of cry babies.
adios see ya on the unemployment line.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

[blockquote]
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On 12/3/2002 9:34:09 PM propjok wrote:

decide to implement j4j can any of you honestlly tell me that is ok to give jobs to mainline pilots at wholly owned airlines that result in our furloughs.
----------------
[/blockquote]


Just where do you think all these RJ routes are coming from? Hmmmmm...lets see....oh yeah!!....those routes come from Mainline routes that resulted in Mainline furloughs!!! Gee how about that.

J4J has nothing to do with your current routes. It is about our routes that the rj's are now flying. The net result would be a W/O with 300 to 400 RJ's......what do you have now? Even using conservative # of 8 pilots per A/C (4 Crews) that is 3200 pilots that are needed. Lessee...we will have 1800 out by end of Jan. If memory serves, all the WO's combines have about 1200 or so pilots....thats 3000. So if they get 400 like they say they are, that means they need 200 more newhires to fly em.

Or we can watch mesa and freedom guys fly off with all the jobs while we hold the bag. Seigel is trying to outsource every other job in the airline....with pilots its the same.....it's just called Contract Carrier RJ service.

 

[OldpropGuy]

[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman]------------[?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice /][o][/o][/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][SPAN class=bodyfont1][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 9pt][FONT face=Arial]Just where do you think all these RJ routes are coming from? Hmmmmm...lets see....oh yeah!!....those routes come from Mainline routes that resulted in Mainline furloughs!!! Gee how about that.[/FONT][/SPAN][/SPAN][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #0b3053; FONT-FAMILY: Arial][BR][BR][SPAN class=bodyfont1]J4J has nothing to do with your current routes. It is about our routes that the rj's are now flying. [o][/o][/SPAN][/SPAN][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman]-------------[o][/o][/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][o][FONT face=Times New Roman color=#000000] [/FONT][/o][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman]PDT, ALG, and PSA are returning aircraft and furloughing pilots while the contract RJ's are flying their routes. No, it’s not all about mainline routes. Dave has stated that we are getting out of the turboprop business.[o][/o][/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][o][FONT face=Times New Roman color=#000000] [/FONT][/o][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][B style=mso-bidi-font-weight: normal][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman]The true story:[o][/o][/FONT][/FONT][/B][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT face=Times New Roman color=#000000]Many years ago, when all the other regional carriers were getting RJ's, the mainline MEC and pilots absolutely refused to hear of such at the wholly-owneds, stating that any jet flying must be done by mainline pilots. The U regionals only wanted to replace the current turboprops and remain competitive, not take the mainline flying. This hard stance was stubbornly maintained as the regionals watched the competition at our outstations lure long-time customers away with their shiny new RJ's. Keep in mind, this was long before management became focused only on the U/UAL merger. So, don’t try to put the blame only on management. Eventually, as feed declined from our regionals, even the most obstinate, self-centered, what’s-in-it-for-us, U pilots had to admit the need for RJ’s if US Airways was to remain competitive. The problem was that this decision was several years too late. We were already behind the power curve. U was busy buying new Airbuses, which they could not fill, and had no funds available to purchase regional jets. Hence, with the arrival of [?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags /][st1:City][st1lace]MESA[/st1lace][/st1:City] and the other contract carriers, outsourcing began. [/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][o][FONT face=Times New Roman color=#000000] [/FONT][/o][/P]
[P][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman]Now U ALPA seems to have agreed to some type of arrangement to allow the Non-union Freedom Air to fly large RJ’s for US Airways while refusing to put them at the wholly-owneds who have agreed to J4J.[o][/o][/FONT][/FONT][/SPAN][/P]
[P][FONT face=Times New Roman][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt][FONT color=#000000][SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]From the [/FONT][SPAN style=COLOR: navy]MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE[/SPAN][FONT color=#000000] [/FONT][/SPAN][st1:date Month=11 Day=21 Year=2002][SPAN style=COLOR: #00007f][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt]November 21, 2002[/SPAN][/SPAN][/st1:date][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt][o][/o][/SPAN][/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][B style=mso-bidi-font-weight: normal][FONT color=#000000][SPAN style=FONT-FAMILY: Arial]The Committee reported that ALPA’s small jet proposal to the Company gave management everything that they had requested, except the ability to put 70-seat small jets at US Airways’ current wholly-owned carriers.[/SPAN][o][/o][/FONT][/B][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][o][FONT face=Times New Roman color=#000000] [/FONT][/o][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT face=Times New Roman color=#000000]All the above would certainly appear to any rational individual to be a reason for some resentment towards mainline by the wholly-owned employees. Jets-for-Jobs seems to demonstrate that the guys that sunk the ship now have the nerve to demand first chance at the lifeboats. [/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][o][FONT face=Times New Roman color=#000000] [/FONT][/o][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman]This may all be water under the bridge, as barring some miracle, none of us will have a future here. [B style=mso-bidi-font-weight: normal][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 14pt]Good luck to all.[o][/o][/SPAN][/B][/FONT][/FONT][/P]

 

[ONTHESTREET]

OK heres the problem, The WO's do not have the RJ's CURRENTLY because U has no money to buy them. I am talking about now. Your history lesson is accurate. But it has little to do with what started this thread. I am tired of some jag-off blaming me and the rest of the mainline pilots for not getting to fly a jet. We have about as much control over our MEC as you do. We are being outsourced, mainline and WO's and the best you can come up with is to blame me?! I had some snot nosed 23ish pdt F/O get pissed at me in an FBO because A. I am a furloughed U Pilot. And B. I am currently flying a Corp. Jet. and C. because he is still on a dash???????? Damn I was the furloughed one in that picture.

I was a Captain on the WO's when he was learning to drive and this guy is giving me a hard time. Then to top it off you guys are roasting us on the boards for something we can do nothing about.

Dave has said in public (Roadshow, Q and A) that he does not care for WO's or really want them. Then you wonder why they are going to the contract carriers.

I do however have a solution for all who want to fly a jet. Do what the guys that used to have your sen. number did. GO FIND A JET JOB!!!! We all did, in my case twice. Just stop blaming us for everything. I am an ex Wholly owned and in the last few weeks I have grown to dislike W/O's due to the attitude I have seen them display both on the boards and in person.

Some RJ operators currently hiring Comair, ASA, ACA, Freedom Air (Straight to left seat....without an interview, I would not ever try to jumpseat on anyother carrier though.) Skywest, and Air Wisc. Give it a shot....you'll be in an RJ in no time. The corp world isn't bad either...I am having a blast. And the best part is I can no longer be blamed for your not flying jets!!!

 

[St. Leibowitz]

QUOTE:

We have about as much control over our MEC as you do.

Zeemzda me the rank and file elect the EC to represent their interests. Or is U-ALPA the Animal Farm?

QUOTE:

...any rational individual...

Zeemzda me those are becoming more and more scarce.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

intead of MEC guy I should have said ALPA rep. This guy was elected but still flew the line. MEC officers mostly do not.

 

[St. Leibowitz]

For the record-

The scarce rational individual was a general observation and was not directed at any particular person.

All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others.