Tulsa AMT movement.

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

While i understand the logic, Delta is by far the largest employer in Georgia, still not asking for taxes to pay for the new shop. 
 
just different management styles i guess. (i don't think either is "wrong) 

Tulsa and Atlanta are not comparable as far as population and economic diversity.
 
AA strong arming Tulsa is hardly comparable to Delta trying to do the same to Atlanta.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta
Encompassing $304 billion, the Atlanta metropolitan area is the eighth-largest economy in the country and 17th-largest in the world.

 

[topDawg]

Tulsa and Atlanta are not comparable as far as population and economic diversity.
 
AA strong arming Tulsa is hardly comparable to Delta trying to do the same to Atlanta.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta
Encompassing $304 billion, the Atlanta metropolitan area is the eighth-largest economy in the country and 17th-largest in the world.

this is a good point I didn't really think of. 

 

[chilokie1]

My issue is why doesn't AA put up some(all) money here? Delta is about to drop 150M on its new engine shop/test cell and AFAIK they are planning to fund it completely. 
 
I guess if the government is willing to do it for you then go for it, but i can't imagine that AA need more than 100-200M to make the needed changes..... 
 
Do you know if AA can modify the existing shops for an engine like the GEnX or if they would have to build an all new cell? 

The current CF6 test cell could be modified but it would be at its rated limits physically, after replacing the doors,
jet-breaker, possibly the intake for the correct flow you would still have an outdated cell. Its an excellent CFM & CF6-80 (767-200)
cell but a bit cumbersome for the CF6-C2 & CF6-B6 (A300/767-300).  In 2016 the CFM56-7 schedule will keep the current cell
pretty busy, a new cell may be the only way to go.

 

[Buck]

Went to the town hall here in Tulsa today. There were no corporate VP's, only the base manager. And whether you believe it or not one of the mechanics asked about the status of the NMB issue, but first asked if there were any union reps in the room, there were none. There are no new answers to this issue. However it appears that the OSM ( AMTO ) issue is changing this Friday. Out of approximately 172 OSM's at TUL, 82 will be upgraded. Of course this depends on further talks between now and Friday. But to further the issue, these 82 coming from the Engine shops, will be comprised of A&P's and Machinist's. This is because of the MD-80 eventually being removed from service. The base manager said, that not all OSM's will be upgraded, but it appears that having a A&P has no bearing on working on the aircraft for this movement of AMT's.  Many on the hangar floor are expressing there thoughts concerning how A&P's opting for machinist jobs in the past were treated bad, by other machinist and the TWU reps overseeing the testing program for those machine positions. Now the A&P's are not going to help these individuals, maybe like they are scabbing? The other local concern was the Hangar 3&4 AMT's want to start working on 737's while waiting on the Airbus.....

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I had an old timer tell me he had never seen massive layoffs due to a fleet change. He stated they always had some kind of mod or upgrade that kept the workforce busy. I believe I have even posted that on these forums.
 
Everyone was concerned about job loss due to the new airframe purchases.
 
It looks like American Airlines is about to build up the workforce at TULE rather than trim it.
 
My question is after the city of Tulsa (of which I am a resident and taxpayer) gives American Airlines millions to "upgrade" what does the city get out of it? The answer of course is more of the same. There is no benefit to the city only the possibility of loss if American Airlines leaves.
 
The city is literally purchasing jobs with taxpayer money.................. if you are a TWU member you are paying twice.
 
For all those people that complain about Tulsa, maybe you should consider that the citizens of Tulsa, most of who are not employees of American Airlines, are largely funding the maintenance program that every other employee of American Airlines and its passengers benefit from. Your welcome.

 

[WorldTraveler]

the other side of the coin for Tulsa and OK is can AA really pull everything down if taxpayers don't pay for upgrades that should be paid for by AA.

and the answer is that AA couldn't simply walk away from TUL if there is no taxpayer money that is given to AA. TUL is too big of a facility for AA and in the airline maintenance world in order for AA just to walk away from it. There isn't enough spare capacity in the world to handle the amount of work that AA does there.

and dawg's point on the DL forums that labor costs are rising around the world is absolutely true. The benefit of outsourcing will diminish.

Parker might try and plan one PMAA or PMUS maintenance facility against another but again there isn't enough capacity to try to get rid of it all.

and given the history of airlines walking away from taxpayer funded facilities, including at PIT which was specifically as part of US' BK restructuring and merger preparations, TUL and OK are not going to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into AA's TUL facilities unless they can see that they get something out of it.

AA is spsnding and will spend billions of dollars as part of the merger and that will have to come from corporate money. Taxpayers are not willing to subsidize profitable companies just because the company wants to save money.

there is a big difference between saving jobs in BK and expecting taxpayers to pay for upgrades to facilities that are part of what every company must do and which is doing on its own including as part of the normal merger process.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Taxpayers are not willing to subsidize profitable companies just because the company wants to save money.

.................
.................
.................
 
Seriously?
 
Did you read what I JUST said?
 
Some taxpayers are outraged however the government is still pushing to fund the upgrades.
 
Read the comments section here. This is the website of one of our local newspapers.
 
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/american-airlines-fleet-modernization-will-require-tulsa-maintenance-base-to/article_545bb370-a3a9-53a2-a31b-ad9864526821.html
 
You will find not everyone is opposed to the idea.
 
If you don't think taxpayers subsidize profitable companies you are living in a fantasy world.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I read exactly what you wrote. and I recognize you are saying some of the same thing. SOME.

but I also know that elected officials are afraid of losing jobs while the vast majority of taxpayers don't want to support profitable companies that can find the money to run other aspects of their business, including for AA to order more new aircraft than any other airline, buy back stock, and upgrade existing aircraft and airport facilities as part of the merger process.

communities are not afraid to tell companies "no" and that includes TUL taxpayers.

the fact that these are overdue upgrades which should have been budgeted by AA along with other transitions to the business and which will result in no new job growth only makes it more likely that AA will have to cough up a lot more from its side if it wants TUL to help pay for upgrades to its facilities.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

including for AA to order more new aircraft than any other airline, buy back stock, and upgrade existing aircraft and airport facilities as part of the merger process.

Translation: 

 

communities are not afraid to tell companies "no" and that includes TUL taxpayers.

As if DL never took a penny of taxpayer money
.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

American Airlines is not only the largest private employer in Tulsa but also the state of OK. Would you want to be the Mayor or Governor that lost the largest employer?

but I also know that elected officials are afraid of losing jobs 

I thought I already covered that.
 
You backed yourself into a corner with your nonsensical post and now you are rehashing what I have already said.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, the difference is that you see it as a given that AA will get what it wants because a few gov't officials aren't willing to risk losing jobs and I say the taxpayers will have the final say and they are not willing to pay for investments which AA should be doing in its own business - esp. since it can find money to do elsewhere.

and no there is no envy.

the same people who complain about corporate welfare and the power of big business can't argue that AA should get it in TUL just because they are the 800 pound gorilla in the state.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

no, the difference is that you see it as a given that AA will get what it wants because a few gov't officials aren't willing to risk losing jobs and I say the taxpayers will have the final say and they are not willing to pay for investments which AA should be doing in its own business - esp. since it can find money to do elsewhere.

Again we are not JUST talking about AA here but the satellite companies AA supports. AA money crosses the hands of almost everyone in this town. Either directly through the company or its employees buying products and services.
 

the same people who complain about corporate welfare and the power of big business can't argue that AA should get it in TUL just because they are the 800 pound gorilla in the state.

No one is arguing they SHOULD get it, only the reality that they WILL get it. 
 
I as a Tulsa resident would rather see that money go toward the roads (the terrible, terrible, awful roads....) or schools (where the lottery money was supposed to go). I would rather see that money go toward diversifying our economy (tax breaks to get other industry here like Iowa is doing). I would rather that money go to funding more police (http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ok/tulsa/crime/#description).
 
The last thing I want to allocate tax dollars to is a company making record profits off a sham bankruptcy.
 
Do I think American Airlines should get corporate welfare? HELL NO!!!!! But, this is not about American Airlines, this is about the IMPACT American Airlines has on the city.
 
I have to ask myself as a citizen of this city if the cost of NO is worth it. Considering the impact it would have on everyone else...... I would have to say the cost of NO is not worth it.
 
Maybe in time as the city grows and becomes more diversified my opinion will change.
 

 just because they are the 800 pound gorilla in the state.

I would say it is more like a 9 ton T. Rex.

 

[WorldTraveler]

we are probably more on the same page than not.

I have far more knowledge about Oklahoma than you might think.

let's just leave it at that.

Every company creates a ripple effect in jobs.

as long as the people of OK are held hostage to AA's demands that TUL and OK spend its own money to do things that AA can find money to do in other projects including upgrading its own fleet and facilities elsewhere, OK will constantly be held hostage. and no one likes that.

they will break the cycle and it will come by saying "no" little by little.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

I have far more knowledge about Oklahoma than you might think.
 

 

 

[WorldTraveler]

you have facts to prove that I don't?

of course you don't.

thank you for proving that it is all just personal for you.