Twu/Amfa Supporters

[TWU informer]

A nice sized chunk of that 85% has not seen the Union Hall in years and definitely have not put any effort into our Union for no other reason than they will not take time out of their day to involve themselves enough to make a meeting or speak up if they have an idea or suggestion or even a quality or ability that would benefit our plight. You hear every excuse in the world as to why they don't show involvement but it always comes back around to no effort on their part because there are too many things more important in their life. I have talked to a few of them is why I am sure of the reasoning. If a new Union were to get voted in you will have the same people with the same complaints in my opinion and somewhat the same level of membership commitment.

You are very confident AMFA will make it in and I am wondering if this is the same prediction power that I read on here with threads predicting what margin the TA/LBO2 would fail by ?

I have some ideas on how to approach this issue that you speak of and you will see some evidence of that in October.

I will disclose specifics at the right time and the right place, which is not here and not now.

But I understand what you are talking about.

One thing to be clear though, is when the union runs like the TWU, whereby "they" are the union and "we" are the members, then of course that is how the membership conducts themselves. They have been taught that behavior, but they are not in love with it. The one perfect example is voting three times NOT to build a new union hall, but the "union" decides to build it anyway. Why bother to get involved if they are going to just do it "their" way regardless of what "we" the memberhsip involvement thinks?

 

[Overspeed]

So now you admit that AA does not run like WN because of the business model, not because the TWU is the current union. That is not what your other post read like.

You stooges can keep prentending like you run this airline, but you must also take credit for the BK filing then too.

Every Airline that AMFA has been at has been a different result. And we will decide how the story of AMFA at AA will read soon enough. Not what happened at NWA, not what happened at UAL, not what happened at SWA, not what happened at Alaska. It will be what happened at AA.

The only "lost soul" is the one that keeps taking the same action over and ever and expecting a different result.
In the TWU case, the results are always negative. Even your most diehard supporters are now teamsters supporters or AMFA supporters and have zero support for the TWU.

Maybe if you guys would get out of the wannabe Airline management business and political campaign managers business, and instead step back into the union representation business, this industry would not keep suffering from YOUR failures.

Just answer one simple question, when 85% of your membership no longer supports the TWU, and the rest are just anti-union period, then what is your plan of strength to do anything positive and successful? Is this what you call unionism? In my opinion, the leaders of any organization that has caused that type of revolt and lack of support across the board would just support change themselves, that is if they were not self serving and the membership's future was really on their agenda.

Any Union without membership support is a dead an ineffective union. That is what the TWU is now. And yet you have in your mind that the train should still run the same track. Unreal!!!

Oh this union does take some of the blame for the BK. Many within this union spoke up about emulating the WN's more liberal work rules and lean concepts but they were ridiculed. Bob, Ruiz, Pike, Chuck, and others were crying for recalls to fatten their Locals with members for better shift and days off driving up costs. Meanwhile WN AMTs work much more cooperatively and ultimately a more lean, lower overall cost operation. So the "stooges" are you Local leaders, not the Int'l. They are the ones who directed their members to work less efficiently so the could get more recalls.

Yes every airline that AMFA has represented has seen a different result. UA lost all of its AO but kept its EO, NW lost everything but DTW and MSP, AS lost all its overhaul, and WN just stayed basically the same because it was almost all outsourced anyway. AA will still have NB AO in-house, CRO, PALM, and provide TWU labor for TAESL even after BK and that my brother is head and shoulders above anything AMFA has done in the past.

No I never said that we should stay on the track within the TWU. A change in Local leadership would be a great start. The vote no coalition screwed us all out of making $38 for the last two years.

 

[iluvaa]

Can someone please try and justify the union hall issue. We vote no 3 times please hss, reality, actink anyone care to explain that I'm willing to bet you TWU worshipers don't touch that one

 

[Overspeed]

How many are currently being hired by AA? How many are going to be shown the door at AA?

If I understood SWAMT he said five a month until the end of the year a few months ago. Sweet, 35 to 40 jobs for the 1,500 who will be out of a job at AA. Anyone who got a new job would be happy if they were unemployed.

 

[Overspeed]

How can you say that?? You don't have a clue how AMFA/AA would look. You are right about AA and SWA being 2 very different bus. However when comparing both co. farming out work, the way your explaining it, AA mechs should be at 60.00 per hour, as they farm out the less. With current contract just voted in they should be around 50.00 per hr as the co. just got permission to farm out 35% more, with no language to snap back to the norm for farming out as well as a snap back for wages. Didin't you guys learn from 2003?? "Never vote in consessions without snap back clause--NEVER!!" Plus, TWU cannot stop any further outsourcing done buy AA.

Since AMFA has came into SWA, the outsourcing has stayed the same percentile. And right now is lower than when the teamsters were here to directly to the purchase of AT. AMFA has not allowed any more outsourced lines of maint. then the teamsters allowed when they were here. This is fact sir. The Els maint was not added, it was removed from one of the US FBO's not added.

What? Did you pass math class? If you outsource more work that you do in-house for less you can then pay your shrinking in-house group more. In order to get WN like wages we would need to outsource at a similar level as WN or 65% to 75% as you state. You really need to think through your arguments and get someone who understands basic math run through your scenarios one by one.

Did WN management approach AMFA to discuss sending four line of overhaul out of the US in exchange for extending the IBT contract again? Yes they did. So AMFA agreed to degrade the current language to extend the IBT contract. WOW! That was a real master stroke of negotiating.

The TWU has specific limits on outsourcing so yes they can and will stop any outsourcing above 35% of maintenance spend. AMFA has a HC cap of 2.75 per aircraft. How is AA going to do close to $1.5B in in-house maintenance spend without thousands of AMTs?

And we have a wage adjustment clause in our contract so we will be getting a very significant raise within 36 months. And Delle said the same thing at UA then the membership wised up and voted in the deal before a BK judge shafted them even more.

Again, you truly are lost brother.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Not a lie Ken and everyone on SAN knows it. How do you think I got my info?

The truth hurts doesn't it Ken. Your AMTA email blasts and the ARSA page both state clearly that you accepted money from them. Over $3,500. No lie Ken. And Ken, accepting money from AA Corp and the ARSA, the people who are outsourcing our profession is okay as long as you divulge where you got it? So you couldn't wait a bit longer to collect donations from people who really appreciate our profession? You compromised Charles Taylor's memory so you could run around saying, "Look what I did. I'm so awesome. I'm Ken and I did it! Me, Ken!" Thank you for finally admitting you are really in it for you.

Better talk to your 564 TWU reps about all the trouble you apparently did not get in. A few calls and emails was all it took to get the dirt on you. The ex-TWA guys also said you were quite disrespectful to them and filed a few complaints about you.

And your flip flopping on unions. Just read your own posts on this blog and when you were on the-mechanic.com, your stance on AMFA/AMP is on the internet. Are you that dense that it is easy to find out a ton about your positions in the age of Google?

Ken, alias or no alias, your history is on the worldwide web. You truly are laughable when it comes to your recollection of the past.

Dobby,

You have facts other than "everyone in SAN knows it" or "a few calls and e-mails" to back up your cowardice?

Ex-TWA guys? Now who would these people be? Again, you talk just like an appointed, international officer. You type/speak and actually say nothing. You are a useless, cowardly tool. Try bringing something important to this thread.

GO AMFA!

 

[iluvaa]

Can someone please try and justify the union hall issue. We vote no 3 times please hss, reality, actink anyone care to explain that I'm willing to bet you TWU worshipers don't touch that one

I'll keep bumping till I get an answer

 

[Bob Owens]

When the Company is going to cut 4,000 jobs and the TA reduces that to 2,000 that is "saving jobs."

All through negotiations they announced several RIFs, other than the closing of MCI they all turned out to be false alarms, in fact headcount increased in 2010. Capacity is tight and wages at MROs are climbing, why would you believe they were going to lay off 4000 after they cried wolf so many times in the recent past? We didnt save 2000 jobs, we ruined 11000 jobs, and more, once the ripple effects of what we did radiate through the industry just like in 2003.

 

[Bob Owens]

Face it Ken, you have so little influence and credibility you have to turn to the very people who seek to destroy good union jobs through outsourcing to honor the father of our profession.

Are you referring to the fact that the AMTA accepted money from the ATD? Oh I see, through outsourceing, you just seek to destroy good union jobs through concessions. Its OK to destroy the jobs as long as whats left still generates dues I guess. Even non-union Jet Blue and Delta make more than we do, a lot more. I know, "AA employs more mechanics than any other Airline", well Wallmart employs more workers than any other store but we are supposed to have a problem with Wallmart because they pay inferior wages and benefits right, or is it because they are non-union? So if Wallmart allowed their workers to unionize but still paid the same would Wallmart be off the Boycott list? So the fact that we pay over $600/year and get less of everything than our non-union counterparts still qualifies what we have, according to you, as a "good union job". Tell me how would you describe a "bad union job"? Or even a "bad job"? To me a bad job is one that pays below market rate, which is what we have!!! And we pay out over $600/year for that!!!! What a bargain-for AA anyhow. Is that what its all about, thousands of workers paying dues to provide you (or your alter ego) a six figure salary and not about improving wages and benefits?

 

[Bob Owens]

Not a lie Ken and everyone on SAN knows it. How do you think I got my info?

Everyone knows how you get your info.

 

[Bob Owens]

I do have my facts straight. AA currently has overhaul work in-house that under the AMFA/WN agreement we would not. So therefore if AMFA were to represent AA (hypothetically) how are we going to get WN wages with all that work in-house? Are you suggesting we have to run WN "lean and mean" (i.e. outsource 65% to 75%) in order to get WN wages?
.

We dont even get Jet Blue wages. Seems your strategy is to keep the work in house by driving down our wages to the point where its not cost effective to send it to AAR or Timco. Might be good for the 2000 guys whose job you claimed to have saved, who live in the lowest cost area of the country, but not so good for every other mechanic in the industry. Now UAL is in a rush to talk contract, wonder why? Do you think they will drag out talks for three years or push to get into a PEB where UAL will bring up our contract to justify concessions at UAL? The damage you have done to this profession is staggering, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Buck]

I would like to hear more theory concerning the wage adjustment at year four.
At that time we will still be compared to the legacy carriers. How can anyone use unfounded data to promote something that might happen in our contract?

 

[Overspeed]

Dobby,

You have facts other than "everyone in SAN knows it" or "a few calls and e-mails" to back up your cowardice?

Ex-TWA guys? Now who would these people be? Again, you talk just like an appointed, international officer. You type/speak and actually say nothing. You are a useless, cowardly tool. Try bringing something important to this thread.

GO AMFA!

Ken you know exactly what I am talking about. Deny, deny, and deny some more but you did get favors from the Int'l. And I noticed you admitted that I know facts (Freudian slip on your part). Name calling does not diminish the fact you like the TWU when they cover your butt and take care of you and your pet projects.

Cowardice? Nope we have met in DFW Ken. When you were out here promising that you would never work at the Hall and would be out on the field. Well you were right on that part but you were a useless rep since you were afraid to get involved with anything and your best answer was call the Hall. You stirred up crap, spoke about AMFA or AMP (whatever your flavor of the month was at the time) and never had much interest other than promoting your MSC and where you were going to put your next bust.

Fine, call me names but that fact is your are ineffective and incompetent. You do no research and act impulsively and emotionally.

 

[Overspeed]

We dont even get Jet Blue wages. Seems your strategy is to keep the work in house by driving down our wages to the point where its not cost effective to send it to AAR or Timco. Might be good for the 2000 guys whose job you claimed to have saved, who live in the lowest cost area of the country, but not so good for every other mechanic in the industry. Now UAL is in a rush to talk contract, wonder why? Do you think they will drag out talks for three years or push to get into a PEB where UAL will bring up our contract to justify concessions at UAL? The damage you have done to this profession is staggering, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Jetblue has a ten year pay scale and outsource all overhaul.

UA is trying to complete the merger and don't want to be like US/HP.

Bob, your advice cost all of us $20K or more voting down the May 2010 TA. Thanks.

 

[Overspeed]

Everyone knows how you get your info.

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