TWU launches union drive of Southwest mechanics to decertify AMFA Read more here: http://blogs.star

[Bob Owens]

No one said outsourcing was not at AA. It was at around 10% and the purpose of the CR Smith letter was in regards to stable employment. Keep lying and distorting the facts Bob. It's what you do best. Joe said clearly that the outsourcing fight was lost and proven by AMFA's actions.

Did I say you said there was no outsourcing at AA? Who is lying?

They used to have more AMTs than AA and now they have less due to outsourcing.

Thats right, they used to have more, and we were bigger than they were. It took BK for UAL to get the concessions that AA progressively gained over the years. We allowed the company to eliminate, mostly through attrition, jobs that were previoulsy done by A&P mechanics or mechanics at the same rates and either outsource them to other companies or to Fleet Service and SRPs.

Don't see the UPS language that allows greater outsourcing. Convenient.

You made the claim, back it up.

The language in the IBT contract provides for how much overhaul? None

Neither does ours.

I never claimed UPS had overhaul in-house so keep lying Bob, you are on a roll.

I never claimed you did, so who is lying? Simply throwing out the facts to put the brakes on your spin.

WN and UPS employ more because they grew where we shrank. It's that simple Bob.

Ok, but AA's revenues increased and our pay went down. So our head count and pay went down, in other words paycuts cant save jobs, it can save the company a lot of money but it cant save jobs.

You can figure this out if you really try. I know you can do it! The point is that AMFA at WN did not maintain the status quo on AMTs per aircraft. They have slipped year over year. If AMFA had held the line on that ratio they would now have 600 to 800 more making $40 plus an hour. That's called a giveback Bob.

OK, efficiency gains can be considered give backs, so how many mechanics lost their jobs at WN? None. How many mechanics took cuts in pay and benefits? None. They say their pension and wage go up considerably. You leave out the fact that AA also saw their mechanic to airplane ratio diminish through efficiency gains as well, probably to an even greter margin than at WN, in fact you have touted that, and what did we get in return? Bottom of the industry contract. So yes, giving efficiency gains can be considered a give back, but when you get increased compensation its considered quid pro quo in contract negotiations. Dont you always say you have to give something to get something?

AMFA even locked in a floor of 2.75 AMTs per aircraft which is lower than they have currently.

And whats the problem with being above the floor? What is our floor?

Under the TWU language the increase in maintenance spend driven by the higher man hours of work would have cause more AMTs to be hired.

No it doesnt. If they keep the mechanics they have working more OT they wont have to hire any more mechanics. There is no language as far as headcount, only spend. Gless admitted that we will likley see numbers unbder 8000.
AA got everything they wanted. They got more labor for less money. Look at how long its taking for AA to get to the 35% they claimed they needed, so had we said No what would have changed? Would the MRO world try and gear up to work AAs planes in the middle of a labor dispute? Doubtful.

230. Click on the FIXJETS.com link on this site. Thats the total number of graduates from their A&P program between their TAMPA and Boston facilities.

We had them, but you guys ran around saying they had us and you got 50.25% to believe you.

 

[Rogallo]

I like you brother. You make me laugh with your witty and insightful comments.

Right back at ya'!!

Gonna do standup when I get hit in the next round of outsourcing!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Then you don't talk to many people. Most wanted to know the dates or windows before leaving. You know this but you still continue to lie. Fact is while there are some that want to go early they can.

Really, cause the language says they can hold them till Sept of 2013.

You really seem to have something personal with Gless, Don V, and Van De Loo. What happened between you all?

Is there something wrong with suggesting that they do what they advocate for everyone else?

You kissed Little's behind arguing for change from within after he slapped you down following your abusive emails and now you only go after them. Why is that Bob?

Look, let me clear this up for you (since you've made this accusation before), so you dont get jealous, because I know that you feel that yours are the only lips that should be pressed against Littles ass, I never kissed Littles ass, I may have covered my own but didnt kiss his. So rest asssured, its all yours. I put out an update to my members saying pretty much what I've been saying since I got into office, because I've seen how in the past this International has spun things as you do. My update made it clear that I was trying to fix this union, which is a huge challenge because the AATD has been taken over by false unionists who promote the same arguements as the Koch brothers-low wages are good for the little people, as they collect six figure salaries. Everything I wrote I believe, that the flight attendants at WN, the MTA workers in local 100 etc get good representation and get value for their dues. None of them are at the bottom of the industry, none of them are excluded from high level negotiations like we at AA are. The difference is they elect their lead negotiators, we don't. We have people like you who hate the members, sitting with a company that treats them very well between the pension and the positive space travel for them and their families, who are not accountable to the members negotiating our deals. You said it yourself, that I as a local President should call Gless, Don or Bob to get stuff done. In other words those apponted people have more authority than the elected Presidents. You just admitted that the AA system is completely different than the rest of the TWU, when is the last time the International decided who would sit on subcommittes during negotiations at WN, or with the MTA, or any other NON-AA affiliated Local? They dont. When the MTA said to Local 100 "accept concessions or we will lay people off and outsource their work" Local 100 said "no concessions", they laid the people off, then within a year called them all back because they needed them. (AA has already admitted that they expect to be hiring off the street within a year) When the International was running out of money did they cut everyones pay? No they laid people off, then called them back. Our handlers say, "give them the concessions, and the heads but we will make them promise to take fewer heads", all the company has to do is throw a high number out there to get everything they want, in fact they are able to take more from their employees than competitors who dont even have unions.

Even Little admits that our structure is screwed up. So what does he do? He puts the very same people that make it screwed up in charge of fixing it. So what do they come up with? A plan based on Donnellys false numbers, that would liquidate 6 locals and send 1000 members to 514 at the expense of Locals that made up the majority of the 49.75% that voted against the contract that you endorsed. Dons plan would leave the same unelected appointees (himself) in charge, and only further isolate line maintenance. Dons plan would have had Aircraft Maintenance representatives out numbered two to one, their only recourse being a 514 weighted vote. We, the elected representatives of the members submitted our own proposals and have our own plans on dealing with the UBB but we were never brought into the process.

 

[Overspeed]

Really, cause the language says they can hold them till Sept of 2013.





Is there something wrong with suggesting that they do what they advocate for everyone else?





Look, let me clear this up for you (since you've made this accusation before), so you dont get jealous, because I know that you feel that yours are the only lips that should be pressed against Littles ass, I never kissed Littles ass, I may have covered my own but didnt kiss his. So rest asssured, its all yours. I put out an update to my members saying pretty much what I've been saying since I got into office, because I've seen how in the past this International has spun things as you do. My update made it clear that I was trying to fix this union, which is a huge challenge because the AATD has been taken over by false unionists who promote the same arguements as the Koch brothers-low wages are good for the little people, as they collect six figure salaries. Everything I wrote I believe, that the flight attendants at WN, the MTA workers in local 100 etc get good representation and get value for their dues. None of them are at the bottom of the industry, none of them are excluded from high level negotiations like we at AA are. The difference is they elect their lead negotiators, we don't. We have people like you who hate the members, sitting with a company that treats them very well between the pension and the positive space travel for them and their families, who are not accountable to the members negotiating our deals. You said it yourself, that I as a local President should call Gless, Don or Bob to get stuff done. In other words those apponted people have more authority than the elected Presidents. You just admitted that the AA system is completely different than the rest of the TWU, when is the last time the International decided who would sit on subcommittes during negotiations at WN, or with the MTA, or any other NON-AA affiliated Local? They dont. When the MTA said to Local 100 "accept concessions or we will lay people off and outsource their work" Local 100 said "no concessions", they laid the people off, then within a year called them all back because they needed them. (AA has already admitted that they expect to be hiring off the street within a year) When the International was running out of money did they cut everyones pay? No they laid people off, then called them back. Our handlers say, "give them the concessions, and the heads but we will make them promise to take fewer heads", all the company has to do is throw a high number out there to get everything they want, in fact they are able to take more from their employees than competitors who dont even have unions.

Even Little admits that our structure is screwed up. So what does he do? He puts the very same people that make it screwed up in charge of fixing it. So what do they come up with? A plan based on Donnellys false numbers, that would liquidate 6 locals and send 1000 members to 514 at the expense of Locals that made up the majority of the 49.75% that voted against the contract that you endorsed. Dons plan would leave the same unelected appointees (himself) in charge, and only further isolate line maintenance. Dons plan would have had Aircraft Maintenance representatives out numbered two to one, their only recourse being a 514 weighted vote. We, the elected representatives of the members submitted our own proposals and have our own plans on dealing with the UBB but we were never brought into the process.

Testy Bob?

The "can" hold them. Like I said, the original information when the EO went out was those that put in for it should be ready to go. If the company hands on to them then maybe you should talk to some other local presidents out there that have had members go on dates different from what they originally set up. Sounds like you aren't sticking up for your members because you are too busy posting here.

I think they are but you apparently do not. My opinion but you have much anger within you grasshopper.

Very nice diatribe but a lot of BS in there. Fact is that the Int'l has a fiduciary duty to oversee the members representational needs. If that means merging locals due to a new contractual rules governing officer wages being paid by the company then a change must be made. I do remember even you calling the UBB a type of hush money. Now you aren't getting it and you are upset. Hmmmm.

I am waiting on what the IEC appointed committee comes up with.

 

[Overspeed]

Did I say you said there was no outsourcing at AA? Who is lying?



Thats right, they used to have more, and we were bigger than they were. It took BK for UAL to get the concessions that AA progressively gained over the years. We allowed the company to eliminate, mostly through attrition, jobs that were previoulsy done by A&P mechanics or mechanics at the same rates and either outsource them to other companies or to Fleet Service and SRPs.






You made the claim, back it up.



Neither does ours.




I never claimed you did, so who is lying? Simply throwing out the facts to put the brakes on your spin.





Ok, but AA's revenues increased and our pay went down. So our head count and pay went down, in other words paycuts cant save jobs, it can save the company a lot of money but it cant save jobs.



OK, efficiency gains can be considered give backs, so how many mechanics lost their jobs at WN? None. How many mechanics took cuts in pay and benefits? None. They say their pension and wage go up considerably. You leave out the fact that AA also saw their mechanic to airplane ratio diminish through efficiency gains as well, probably to an even greter margin than at WN, in fact you have touted that, and what did we get in return? Bottom of the industry contract. So yes, giving efficiency gains can be considered a give back, but when you get increased compensation its considered quid pro quo in contract negotiations. Dont you always say you have to give something to get something?



And whats the problem with being above the floor? What is our floor?



No it doesnt. If they keep the mechanics they have working more OT they wont have to hire any more mechanics. There is no language as far as headcount, only spend. Gless admitted that we will likley see numbers unbder 8000.
AA got everything they wanted. They got more labor for less money. Look at how long its taking for AA to get to the 35% they claimed they needed, so had we said No what would have changed? Would the MRO world try and gear up to work AAs planes in the middle of a labor dispute? Doubtful.

230. Click on the FIXJETS.com link on this site. Thats the total number of graduates from their A&P program between their TAMPA and Boston facilities.

We had them, but you guys ran around saying they had us and you got 50.25% to believe you.

Uh I didn't Bob. I said it was at around 10%. Slow down brother. Breathe.

Again you don't understand aircraft maintenance do you Bob. UA had a ton of 747s and 777s and we did not. That drives AMTs.

It's in the UPS contract Bob. Look it up and they only have 700 AMTs.

Correct but it does provide for 65% of the direct labor and mat'l spend and there is no way AA can outsource that much work to completely dump PALM, CRO, and AO. No way.

You said UPS never did overhaul and I said I never said they did. Breathe Bob, breathe.

Pay went down in 2003, AA was still shrinking. Your facts don't line up because while revenues may have gone up, so did fuel costs. Fuel is an expense. When gas went up to $4 to $5 a gallon did your personal expenses not go up faster than your pay raise of 1.5% (revenue) a year? That's how fuel costs hit AA. But you are a smart guy you know this.

Good Bob, your getting it. Efficiency gains translate in to lower overall labor costs even though wages are higher. Kind of like the TWU ATD was trying to get you to understand that when they said we need to work to increase productivity and efficiency so we can get more when we go to contract negotiations. But you were too clever then and you refused along with your other local line presidents to do that. Instead you cried for more recalls and told your members not to help out. AA then decided to just outsource the work then. Good job Bob. You won that battle.

Our floor is 65% of total labor and material spend. In airline the size of AA that's A LOT more than 2.75 per aircraft. Unless you intend on having the same labor cost with fewer people. You can do that two ways Bob. Become more efficient and pay the remaining people more or just outsource a bunch of jobs and pay the remaining members more (the AMFA way).

No AA wanted you to win Bob. They wanted a no vote and then abrogation. Then they would be able to outsource over 50%. We did not have them Bob. They had you. Horton owns you since he knows how you think and you walk in thinking your smart and a tough guy. Yeah, right!

 

[WNMECH]

Uh I didn't Bob. I said it was at around 10%. Slow down brother. Breathe.

Again you don't understand aircraft maintenance do you Bob. UA had a ton of 747s and 777s and we did not. That drives AMTs.

It's in the UPS contract Bob. Look it up and they only have 700 AMTs.

Correct but it does provide for 65% of the direct labor and mat'l spend and there is no way AA can outsource that much work to completely dump PALM, CRO, and AO. No way.

You said UPS never did overhaul and I said I never said they did. Breathe Bob, breathe.

Pay went down in 2003, AA was still shrinking. Your facts don't line up because while revenues may have gone up, so did fuel costs. Fuel is an expense. When gas went up to $4 to $5 a gallon did your personal expenses not go up faster than your pay raise of 1.5% (revenue) a year? That's how fuel costs hit AA. But you are a smart guy you know this.

Good Bob, your getting it. Efficiency gains translate in to lower overall labor costs even though wages are higher. Kind of like the TWU ATD was trying to get you to understand that when they said we need to work to increase productivity and efficiency so we can get more when we go to contract negotiations. But you were too clever then and you refused along with your other local line presidents to do that. Instead you cried for more recalls and told your members not to help out. AA then decided to just outsource the work then. Good job Bob. You won that battle.

Our floor is 65% of total labor and material spend. In airline the size of AA that's A LOT more than 2.75 per aircraft. Unless you intend on having the same labor cost with fewer people. You can do that two ways Bob. Become more efficient and pay the remaining people more or just outsource a bunch of jobs and pay the remaining members more (the AMFA way).

No AA wanted you to win Bob. They wanted a no vote and then abrogation. Then they would be able to outsource over 50%. We did not have them Bob. They had you. Horton owns you since he knows how you think and you walk in thinking your smart and a tough guy. Yeah, right!

Or you can have it the TWU way.
Lose your jobs AND get lower wages AND less benefits.
Oh yea that sounds great.
Maybe that is why you don't have one single SWA mechanic on any of these forums claiming that they want the TWU over AMFA.

Come on overspin, anomaly, realitytick, low speed steel......can't you guys at least pretend to be a SWA mechanic buying this BS?
Anyone.....
Bueller.......

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Were you a local officer? Then you know that you were the person who votes on behalf of your members as a delegate to the convention.

Ken, I am sure you were really pissed about getting that DFW transfer deal from an appointed Int'l officer weren't you. Sure was nice to have his number on speed dial when your family was moving without you and he helped you by opening another slot.

Don,

Yes, I was an elected officer at the local level. And with the twu structure that is in place our local did send a delegate. That doesn't mean that the twu structure is democratic. I ran for office after only being in DFW for a couple of months and won my position. I worked within the constricted constitution of an industrial union.

The delegates that did go to the national convention stated that it was the most sickening display of unionism possible. Voting on motions more than once is not democratic. The delegates that went from our local tried to make change but this had to be accomplished with delegates who weren't even AMTs! The twu likes to lump in casino dealers and taxi/bus drivers in with my craft and profession. That's not what AMTs want. We want a national convention where all are in our craft & class debating issues that directly effect our profession.

You keep harping about my transfer to DFW that coincided with about over 100 other transfers. If you pulled any favors for me state what they were. But don't do it from behind your cowardly alias.

You care for more truth?

The twu international is scared of losing AA AMTs and are trying ANYTHING to prevent that from happening. Even creating a "ghost" card drive at Southwest so you can attempt to act like the twu is actually wanted somewhere.

Go AMFA!

 

[Bob Owens]

If that means merging locals due to a new contractual rules governing officer wages being paid by the company then a change must be made. I do remember even you calling the UBB a type of hush money. Now you aren't getting it and you are upset. Hmmmm.

When did I ever say I was upset about the loss of UBB? Making stuff up again? Or are you simply annoyed that we aren't annoyed?

How many TWU Locals out there, outside of AA have it where the company pays the Local President a Salary for not working at AA? I know that our Landlord Local 504 doesnt. The fact is we have already discussed changes that would leave us in fine shape without the UBP. When some of the Fleet Locals lost their UBP for a while because they did not have enough members to qualify for UBB the International did not try and liquidate them. So what did they do with Maint? They had Donnelly draw up some BS financial plan, more than likely using the same erroneous data that Don told us not to challenge as far as how many people each station had on UBB and tried to convince the IEC that we would go broke. have to wonder, did Don meet with the company and have them do that so he could try and do this? The company was aware of 591 before we were, amazing isn't it?

 

[Bob Owens]

Again you don't understand aircraft maintenance do you Bob. UA had a ton of 747s and 777s and we did not. That drives AMTs.

I understand completely, and 777s a 767s drive more heads than 737s, you seem to forget that when you look at WN.


It's in the UPS contract Bob.

Prove it.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Don,

Yes, I was an elected officer at the local level. And with the twu structure that is in place our local did send a delegate. That doesn't mean that the twu structure is democratic. I ran for office after only being in DFW for a couple of months and won my position. I worked within the constricted constitution of an industrial union.

The delegates that did go to the national convention stated that it was the most sickening display of unionism possible. Voting on motions more than once is not democratic. The delegates that went from our local tried to make change but this had to be accomplished with delegates who weren't even AMTs! The twu likes to lump in casino dealers and taxi/bus drivers in with my craft and profession. That's not what AMTs want. We want a national convention where all are in our craft & class debating issues that directly effect our profession.

You keep harping about my transfer to DFW that coincided with about over 100 other transfers. If you pulled any favors for me state what they were. But don't do it from behind your cowardly alias.

You care for more truth?

The twu international is scared of losing AA AMTs and are trying ANYTHING to prevent that from happening. Even creating a "ghost" card drive at Southwest so you can attempt to act like the twu is actually wanted somewhere.

Go AMFA!

No wonder you quit. Your priorities of the job you were elected to do were compromised by your ignorance to the job you were elected to do.... :wacko:

 

[DNTULSA]

No wonder you quit. Your priorities of the job you were elected to do were compromised by your ignorance to the job you were elected to do.... :wacko:

Bless your heart, lowspeed....

you can't answer direct questions, but you sure can throw out blind accusations!

To quote Bob Dylan, "There ought to be a law against you coming around!"

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

No wonder you quit. Your priorities of the job you were elected to do were compromised by your ignorance to the job you were elected to do.... :wacko:

Hum,

Not making much sense here Don. Perhaps they job you were appointed to, as was every other appointed atd int. rep., allowed you to be appointed because your principles and beliefs were compromised prior to being appointed?

 

[swamt]

Well folks, there are a few of us here at SWA trying to locate and talk to the TWU card drive supporters. Can't seem to find any. You would think they would have posted on this site by now, as well as posted in the hangars, but nothing to the cause. In talking with alot of mechs from every work location (except for GSE, instructors, and M/C) we have not found one single TWU supporter, or campaign runner. NONE, NATTA, ZILCH. Now lets say there is a group of mechs wanting TWU to do a drive. Where are the mechs doing the drive? To this day we have not heard from anyone promoting the TWU at SWA.

This was a 100% scam move by the TWU, with help from the teamsters, (who do you all think gave our private infomation to the TWU) to try and keep TWU at AA. The TWU and teamsters want all you AA mechs to "THINK" there really is this big card drive at SWA to bring in the TWU. THIS IS NOT HAPPENING. They are telling the AA mechs that; "SWA is tired of AMFA at SWA, can't you see the TWU card drive?" They are "trying" to make it look like the SWA mechs are getting rid of the union to get more AA mechs to vote for the TWU when the vote comes. Yes the vote is coming gentlemen. The TWU and teamsters see this coming and they will now do whatever it takes as a last resort to get votes away from AMFA. You guys will be seeing an announcement early 2013.

Don't forget the AMFA info meetings coming up: Dec 17th, 2012 @ AFW 10am-5pm
Dec 18th, 2012 @ Tulsa 10am-5pm

Goto this site for addresses:
AMFA is Coming to AFW and Tulsa!

Come with all your questions about anything and everything...

 

[Bob Owens]

Ken, I am sure you were really pissed about getting that DFW transfer deal from an appointed Int'l officer weren't you. Sure was nice to have his number on speed dial when your family was moving without you and he helped you by opening another slot.

Getting a transfer deal? Don has the power to "open " slots? Is Don management?

He has the ability to make requests. So yes maybe he helped him by asking and I'm sure Ken thanked him for that but isn't that what he is paid over $150k a year for?

Are you saying that such things as facilitating transfers makes up for helping put the worst contract in the industry in place?

 

[swamt]

Bob, I would like to ask you a question. I understand your position upon unionism as a whole. You have never given up on supporting the TWU, however, you have definately brought to light alot of failures of the past and criticism as of late with the TWU. When AMFA gets their approval of an election at AA, may I ask how you might vote? TWU? or AMFA? If you cannot answer publically I will understand. But from alot of your post, IMO, it seems like you too are ready for some change. Now let's say AMFA is voted in at AA, rather you voted for them or not, would you run for any position within the AMFA organization to continue representing your fellow workers? It's been done here at SWA after we fired the teamsters. We currently have some past teamster union officers and reps now being officers and reps under AMFA. But only the ones that were truely representing the membership was allowed back in, as all positions with AMFA are elected positions. Just curious Bob. And again if you wish not to answer I will understand. I could see the TWU trying to bring you up on some sort of BS charge for supporting the AMFA while still a TWU officer or official. Thx in advance...