TWU launches union drive of Southwest mechanics to decertify AMFA Read more here: http://blogs.star

[Rogallo]

YES and the Company NOT the TWU offered about .50 more an hour. This was done to keep AMFA away and the TWU on the property. There was a strong AMFA drive at the time right after NWA got their nice contract. AA had to do better and they did. Short lived of course and the rest is in the history books for AA and the TWU.

I thought so. I remember now. Bring out the coffin!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Not out of context. Prisco said that outsourcing is here to stay.

Outsourcing was always here at AA. Just look at the CR Smith letter from 1950. There CR Smith was justifying the highre levels of outsourcing as a means of achieving a more stable workforce. We continued to lead the legacy carriers in outsourcing right up till 2001. Where does Joe say that they wont fight for OH? your quote cited him saying that outsourcing is here to stay, was he wrong? Like I said, show the whole article. THE IBT was promising that if UAL voted in the IBT that the IBT would get all that work back in house, well did they?

The new UPS contract allows more foreign outsourcing read the language. The formula allows work to be done on aircraft based on the time they fly outside the US. AMFA rolled and allowed outsourcing to El Salvador to get another three year extension on the IBT contract at WN.

And our 777 are going where? East of Dallas? Whats stopping AA from shipping 35% of the spend to El Salvador? Dont really see where the UPS language allows more work, since I ddint see what was considered "restricted". So UPS got their pay brought up in excess of $50/hr, and they allow outsourced work to go overseas. We allow work to be outsourced Overseas and get $34/hr. UPS never had OH so you cant claim that they lost jobs to get their $50/hr just as its claimed that we never lost jobs when R&D and DeIcing was outsourced to Fleet and a lot of the shop jobs were outsourced, from the perspective of an A&P to SRPs/ OSMs. The fact is that both UPS and WN employ more mechanics than they did ten years ago while AA emplys around 8000 less. Seems that those carriers are following the approach CR Smith did as far as hiring less and not having layoffs.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yep Bob, most do dream of what WN AMTs get paid but aren't willing to sacrifice 80% of our fellow union brothers and sisters jobs like you. You never tell the whole story. You want lower seniority people to pay for your raise.

80%!! Why not just say 100%? The fact is that the company hasnt even been able get to 35%, they are holdng the EO and SIS because they cant afford to let them go. Yet you claim they could let 80% go? Is that based upon the cliam that if we had WN payrates that AA would have the same manpower requirements per airplane? thats rubbish and you know it. WN does not operate anything other than narrowbodies which require fewer manhours to maintain. No Etops either.

I want lower seniority people to have a future. Many of the people who you claim to be looking out for are looking out for a different job.

 

[WNMECH]

80%!! Why not just say 100%? The fact is that the company hasnt even been able get to 35%, they are holdng the EO and SIS because they cant afford to let them go. Yet you claim they could let 80% go? Is that based upon the cliam that if we had WN payrates that AA would have the same manpower requirements per airplane? thats rubbish and you know it. WN does not operate anything other than narrowbodies which require fewer manhours to maintain. No Etops either.

I want lower seniority people to have a future. Many of the people who you claim to be looking out for are looking out for a different job.

SWA manpower goals have always been the same since the beginning of SWA.
They did not change when the IBT came in and they didn't change when AMFA came in.
We have been adding new a/c and retiring old a/c at a rate that let's us add mechanics and keep us at around 3 mechanics per a/c.
The same as it has always been at SWA.

Overspin will now quibble over a few percentage points differences without having exact mechanic headcounts to back up his lies.

If AMFA gets in at AA overspin will claim the job losses you are having now are due to AMFA, just like he blames everything on AMFA.
It is really pathetic the way he thinks all mechanics are stupid enough to believe his BS if he just keeps repeating it.
Spin away overspin, you are like a broken record with lies.

 

[Overspeed]

Again you lie and claim that AMFA wants to give up 80% of AA jobs.
When we went AMFA at SWA we did not give up any jobs.
We have never given up jobs here, only added jobs.
Now go ahead and claim that because we didn't add jobs fast enough for you that it means somehow that we gave jobs away.
Spin away overspin.

Not a lie. Just look at UA, AMFA did not enforce the scope language and the remainder of airframe overhaul jobs were given away.

No AMFA did not give away any jobs at WN. They just did not enforce the IBT status quo. Prior to AMFA's arrival the ratio of AMTs to aircraft was slowly reduced. Since AMFA did not maintain the status quo WN now has 600 to 800 fewer AMT jobs than they would have had AMFA just maintained the work level that the IBT had in place prior to 1999. Not fighting for maintaining existing levels of work in-house...well brother, that's a giveback. Not a spin. Reality. When you bid for your shift, days off, and vacation having 800 people below you creates more slots and when you want to have weekends off and Christmas off, that's kind of a big deal. And that's no spin brother.

Southwest management outplayed AMFA just like NW and UA management did. That is why you now have 3,000 members due to the outsourcing of 15,000 members jobs.

 

[Overspeed]

80%!! Why not just say 100%? The fact is that the company hasnt even been able get to 35%, they are holdng the EO and SIS because they cant afford to let them go. Yet you claim they could let 80% go? Is that based upon the cliam that if we had WN payrates that AA would have the same manpower requirements per airplane? thats rubbish and you know it. WN does not operate anything other than narrowbodies which require fewer manhours to maintain. No Etops either.

I want lower seniority people to have a future. Many of the people who you claim to be looking out for are looking out for a different job.

Keep lying Bob. The fact is most who took the SiS and EO wanted to slow down their departure date so they could get things in order. The TWU worked with management and ER to make this happen.

So then you agree that the WN comparison is not legitimate? Great! Then you can shut up about getting WN wages. That was easy Bob. Why didn't you tell the members that in 2010?

 

[Bob Owens]

Keep lying Bob. The fact is most who took the SiS and EO wanted to slow down their departure date so they could get things in order. The TWU worked with management and ER to make this happen.

And you claim to know this how? I have only heard from guys who want to go. Yes there are a few that were 54 years old and opted for a later date but the calls I've recieved all stem from guys who are being held. I requested they let them go and cover it with OT.

So then you agree that the WN comparison is not legitimate? Great! Then you can shut up about getting WN wages. That was easy Bob. Why didn't you tell the members that in 2010?

Why didnt I tell the members what? WN only had narrowbodies and fewer mechanics per airplane when they made less than us. Staffing and the wages are two different issues. Is it your position that if an employer hires twice as many workers that each of those workers should work for half as much?

How about this? Obviously Bobby Gless ,Bob VanDer Loo, Don Videtich and all the other guys at the ATD who came out of AA are very busy with all the riffs and stuff, so why not cut their pay in half and use the other half to hire more workers to help them? Dons half could pay a guy $75k, thats more than we get. I mean they shouldnt be greedy, after all we are sending hundreds of members to the street in DFW, shouldnt they be willing to do this to save members from being unemployed?

 

[Rogallo]

And our 777 are going where? East of Dallas? Whats stopping AA fom shipping 35% of the spend to El Salvador? Dont really see where the UPS language allows more work, since I ddint see what was considered "restricted". So UPS got their pay brought up in excess of $50/hr, and they allow outsourced work to go overseas. We allow work to be outsourced Overseas and get $34/hr. UPS never had OH so you cant claim that they lost jobs to get their $50/hr just as its claimed that we never lost jobs when R&D and DeIcing was outsourced to Fleet and a lot of the shop jobs were outsourced, from the perspective of an A&P to SRPs/ OSMs. The fact is that both UPS and WN employ more mechanics than they did ten years ago while AA emplys around 8000 less. Seems that those carriers are following the approach CR Smith did as far as hiring less and not having layoffs.

No response to this post Overspeed?

C'mon man, You can do it. Spin away!

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

And you claim to know this how? I have only heard from guys who want to go. Yes there are a few that were 54 years old and opted for a later date but the calls I've recieved all stem from guys who are being held. I requested they let them go and cover it with OT.



Why didnt I tell the members what? WN only had narrowbodies and fewer mechanics per airplane when they made less than us. Staffing and the wages are two different issues. Is it your position that if an employer hires twice as many workers that each of those workers should work for half as much?

How about this? Obviously Bobby Gless ,Bob VanDer Loo, Don Videtich and all the other guys at the ATD who came out of AA are very busy with all the riffs and stuff, so why not cut their pay in half and use the other half to hire more workers to help them? Dons half could pay a guy $75k, thats more than we get. I mean they shouldnt be greedy, after all we are sending hundreds of members to the street in DFW, shouldnt they be willing to do this to save members from being unemployed?

Bob

Now come on you know better than to suggest that the TWU Intl boys take pay concessions, then they would be like the rest of us. They will not reduce their pay even a dime to save jobs. They are accountable to NO-ONE, above the law as they say.

Don V. and Bob V. will be in miami attempting to double talk the guys here into believing that the TWU is and will do what ever to fix or correct the rif and seniority. But we all know that they are here since Miami guys hired outside legal representation. That is going to add to their work load, I wonder if the will keep guys on payroll until it gets worked out or will they expect these guys to do from the street?

We will see just how well the TWU stands up for its workers....... I understand that there are many throughout the system that are in the same position I hope they get outside legal as well. Maybe they members outside Miami can join in the legal action against the TWU.

 

[Overspeed]

Outsourcing was always here at AA. Just look at the CR Smith letter from 1950. There CR Smith was justifying the highre levels of outsourcing as a means of achieving a more stable workforce. We continued to lead the legacy carriers in outsourcing right up till 2001. Where does Joe say that they wont fight for OH? your quote cited him saying that outsourcing is here to stay, was he wrong? Like I said, show the whole article. THE IBT was promising that if UAL voted in the IBT that the IBT would get all that work back in house, well did they?





And our 777 are going where? East of Dallas? Whats stopping AA from shipping 35% of the spend to El Salvador? Dont really see where the UPS language allows more work, since I ddint see what was considered "restricted". So UPS got their pay brought up in excess of $50/hr, and they allow outsourced work to go overseas. We allow work to be outsourced Overseas and get $34/hr. UPS never had OH so you cant claim that they lost jobs to get their $50/hr just as its claimed that we never lost jobs when R&D and DeIcing was outsourced to Fleet and a lot of the shop jobs were outsourced, from the perspective of an A&P to SRPs/ OSMs. The fact is that both UPS and WN employ more mechanics than they did ten years ago while AA emplys around 8000 less. Seems that those carriers are following the approach CR Smith did as far as hiring less and not having layoffs.

No one said outsourcing was not at AA. It was at around 10% and the purpose of the CR Smith letter was in regards to stable employment. Keep lying and distorting the facts Bob. It's what you do best. Joe said clearly that the outsourcing fight was lost and proven by AMFA's actions. They let UA walk all over the outsourcing restrictions and send the remainder of airframe overhaul overseas. Now UA has no heavy airframe overhaul. They used to have more AMTs than AA and now they have less due to outsourcing. Thanks AMFA! Those professional litigators and negotiators are AWESOME!

Don't see the UPS language that allows greater outsourcing. Convenient. The language in the IBT contract provides for how much overhaul? None. And how much line work in-house? UPS is allowed to outsource line work based on a formula that provides work to be outsourced based on how much it flies outside the country. I never claimed UPS had overhaul in-house so keep lying Bob, you are on a roll.

WN and UPS employ more because they grew where we shrank. It's that simple Bob. You can figure this out if you really try. I know you can do it! The point is that AMFA at WN did not maintain the status quo on AMTs per aircraft. They have slipped year over year. If AMFA had held the line on that ratio they would now have 600 to 800 more making $40 plus an hour. That's called a giveback Bob. AMFA even locked in a floor of 2.75 AMTs per aircraft which is lower than they have currently. AMFA agreed to language that provided for fewer AMTs per aircraft even though the WN fleet is getting older driving more work load. Under the TWU language the increase in maintenance spend driven by the higher man hours of work would have cause more AMTs to be hired. Instead AMFA conceded a level of greater outsourcing to AMFA by sticking to an AMT to aircraft ratio that gives no consideration to work load. Great job AMFA!

Bob if you were the chief negotiator for the TWU we would have already had the contract settled. You would have given Horton just what he wanted. The ability to outsource at an unlimited level in return you would have had your geo-pay and higher line pay. Horton and you would have been Wall Street's darlings.

 

[WNMECH]

Not a lie. Just look at UA, AMFA did not enforce the scope language and the remainder of airframe overhaul jobs were given away.

No AMFA did not give away any jobs at WN. They just did not enforce the IBT status quo. Prior to AMFA's arrival the ratio of AMTs to aircraft was slowly reduced. Since AMFA did not maintain the status quo WN now has 600 to 800 fewer AMT jobs than they would have had AMFA just maintained the work level that the IBT had in place prior to 1999. Not fighting for maintaining existing levels of work in-house...well brother, that's a giveback. Not a spin. Reality. When you bid for your shift, days off, and vacation having 800 people below you creates more slots and when you want to have weekends off and Christmas off, that's kind of a big deal. And that's no spin brother.

Southwest management outplayed AMFA just like NW and UA management did. That is why you now have 3,000 members due to the outsourcing of 15,000 members jobs.

Prior to 1999 our mechanic ratios were the same as they are now.
You admitted in earlier posts that the figures you used to come to your mythical ratios included people who were not mechanics.
Your numbers are wrong, your conclusions are wrong, your assumptions are wrong and you keep babbling the same old BS as before.
Just as I predicted.

I only speak about SWA.
But with as much lying and spinning you try to do about us, I don't believe a word you say about AMFA at UAL.

I was here with the IBT and I am here now. You can't BS me about how it was. Nobody here is buying it because we know.

Where are all the disgruntled SWA mechanics that you claim want to dump AMFA.

You are posting your BS on our forum and haven't got ONE SWA mechanic to agree with you.
Not one.
Kind of strange that there is this big revolt against AMFA going on at SWA and you can't find ONE guy to back you up who wants to go TWU.
Very strange indeed.

 

[Overspeed]

And you claim to know this how? I have only heard from guys who want to go. Yes there are a few that were 54 years old and opted for a later date but the calls I've recieved all stem from guys who are being held. I requested they let them go and cover it with OT.



Why didnt I tell the members what? WN only had narrowbodies and fewer mechanics per airplane when they made less than us. Staffing and the wages are two different issues. Is it your position that if an employer hires twice as many workers that each of those workers should work for half as much?

How about this? Obviously Bobby Gless ,Bob VanDer Loo, Don Videtich and all the other guys at the ATD who came out of AA are very busy with all the riffs and stuff, so why not cut their pay in half and use the other half to hire more workers to help them? Dons half could pay a guy $75k, thats more than we get. I mean they shouldnt be greedy, after all we are sending hundreds of members to the street in DFW, shouldnt they be willing to do this to save members from being unemployed?

Then you don't talk to many people. Most wanted to know the dates or windows before leaving. You know this but you still continue to lie. Fact is while there are some that want to go early they can. Maybe you should call Little, Don V, or Gless and he can help you out with your guys wanting to go now.

No my position is not that HC dictates pay rates. The point is that union labor can do the job better and more efficiently in-house than having it outsourced. That is only if both sides work together but you were against that Bob. You told your guys to work slower until they got a big pay raise. AA couldn't get the value they needed out of the in-house staff so they outsourced it in BK. You chose the fight Bob and you lost, excuse me, you still get your $22K and weekends off, the members paid for your miscalculation.

You really seem to have something personal with Gless, Don V, and Van De Loo. What happened between you all? Seems like you are bucking for your own Int'l job. You kissed Little's behind arguing for change from within after he slapped you down following your abusive emails and now you only go after them. Why is that Bob?

 

[Overspeed]

Prior to 1999 our mechanic ratios were the same as they are now.
You admitted in earlier posts that the figures you used to come to your mythical ratios included people who were not mechanics.
Your numbers are wrong, your conclusions are wrong, your assumptions are wrong and you keep babbling the same old BS as before.
Just as I predicted.

I only speak about SWA.
But with as much lying and spinning you try to do about us, I don't believe a word you say about AMFA at UAL.

OK. You got me there. Your arguments were filled with facts and data. I referenced DOL F41 numbers and you said they were wrong and gave me new numbers. I referenced those HC numbers and re-ran the numbers and came up with 600 jobs not added instead of 800. Either way your scope language does not maintain the IBT status quo. AMFA locked in a 2.75 per aircraft ratio that does not take in to account that older aircraft require more work as they age. That means new work driven by aging aircraft will be done by an outside vendor. Did you tell your members that? No because that would be admitting the truth. Can't do that now can you? That would be admitting that AMFA doesn't care about overhaul.

 

[Overspeed]

No response to this post Overspeed?

C'mon man, You can do it. Spin away!

I like you brother. You make me laugh with your witty and insightful comments.

 

[WNMECH]

OK. You got me there. Your arguments were filled with facts and data. I referenced DOL F41 numbers and you said they were wrong and gave me new numbers. I referenced those HC numbers and re-ran the numbers and came up with 600 jobs not added instead of 800. Either way your scope language does not maintain the IBT status quo. AMFA locked in a 2.75 per aircraft ratio that does not take in to account that older aircraft require more work as they age. That means new work driven by aging aircraft will be done by an outside vendor. Did you tell your members that? No because that would be admitting the truth. Can't do that now can you? That would be admitting that AMFA doesn't care about overhaul.

Tell our members?
We already know the SWA business model that SWA had from the beginning.
It was here before AMFA, and we will have it long into the future.
We didn't vote AMFA in here to change SWA.
We wanted to control ourselves. Which we do now.

Answer this part of my last post.

I was here with the IBT and I am here now. You can't BS me about how it was. Nobody here is buying it because we know.

Where are all the disgruntled SWA mechanics that you claim want to dump AMFA.

You are posting your BS on our forum and haven't got ONE SWA mechanic to agree with you. Not one. Kind of strange that there is this big revolt against AMFA going on at SWA and you can't find ONE guy to back you up who wants to go TWU. Very strange indeed.