TWU,TEAMSTERS AND AA

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Anomoly

The problem with your thought about the IBT is the UPS guys are NOT part of the same Teamster organization. What I mean is they have their own Local.(local 2727). Unlike United mechanics, they are lumped in with all the other trades.

Did they UAL mechanics have a choice?

Can they get a separate Local?

Can they get to a point where they have the power to remove officers they
feel are not dong the job they are being paid to do, without other trades
having a say?

Did the UAL mechanics that were forced to be assigned to the LAX local when they work in SFO have a choice?

Can they say I want to be part of my cities Local and have that wish honored?

These are things maybe the IBT should work on within itself since it wants to be the power in the airline business.

Listening to the membership and what they want not just the same ole crap that has been going for so long, then AMFA would not have any supporters.
Maybe you and Chris should discuss that at you next road show.

 

[Anomaly]

Anomoly

The problem with your thought about the IBT is the UPS guys are NOT part of the same Teamster organization. What I mean is they have their own Local.(local 2727). Unlike United mechanics, they are lumped in with all the other trades.

Did they UAL mechanics have a choice?

Can they get a separate Local?

Can they get to a point where they have the power to remove officers they
feel are not dong the job they are being paid to do, without other trades
having a say?

Did the UAL mechanics that were forced to be assigned to the LAX local when they work in SFO have a choice?

Can they say I want to be part of my cities Local and have that wish honored?

These are things maybe the IBT should work on within itself since it wants to be the power in the airline business.

Listening to the membership and what they want not just the same ole crap that has been going for so long, then AMFA would not have any supporters.
Maybe you and Chris should discuss that at you next road show.

The only problem with my post is that you do not how to refute it. You must instead try to deflect and change topics. Your statements have nothing to do with the subject of my post. NOTHING AT ALL.

However, in order to avoid the inevitable whines from you and your other aliases; assuming that your complaints are correct and shared by Teamster members at UA, WHERE IS THE CAMPAIGN TO LEAVE????

There is none. The only ones with the real problems associated with how our Locals are assigned is those of you on the outside. I have admitted several time on this board that the system for organizing members in to an Airline Division Local could be better constructed, but to say that it has created a real problem is nothing more than a political farce.

Look at what you are saying....On one hand you say that you want a single Local and on the other complain the members in San Francisco belong to an LAX local? Your blubbering antics are gaining you no ground my brother.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

The only problem with my post is that you do not how to refute it. You must instead try to deflect and change topics. Your statements have nothing to do with the subject of my post. NOTHING AT ALL.

However, in order to avoid the inevitable whines from you and your other aliases; assuming that your complaints are correct and shared by Teamster members at UA, WHERE IS THE CAMPAIGN TO LEAVE????

There is none. The only ones with the real problems associated with how our Locals are assigned is those of you on the outside. I have admitted several time on this board that the system for organizing members in to an Airline Division Local could be better constructed, but to say that it has created a real problem is nothing more than a political farce.

Look at what you are saying....On one hand you say that you want a single Local and on the other complain the members in San Francisco belong to an LAX local? Your blubbering antics are gaining you no ground my brother.

Anomoly

I was stating facts about UPS, I never said I wanted a single Local, I just pointed out that the UPS guys have that and that they have more say in their Local than the UAL/CAL guys will have.

The TWU here at AA has stuck us in one line local, do I like that NO.

Its harder to hold the officers accountable form the other side of the country if the Local is not in your city. It is also impossible to attend meetings with the officers when they are not in your region/city.

Why isn't there a campaign to leave the IBT, I have no clue, I don't work at UAL, I have heard that there may be, but we will see, after you and the other IBT officials integrate the two carriers, get one contract, it will depend how long that takes and how good of a job the membership thinks you will have done at the 10 yr point in time.

 

[Anomaly]

Why isn't there a campaign to leave the IBT, I have no clue, I don't work at UAL, I have heard that there may be, but we will see, after you and the other IBT officials integrate the two carriers, get one contract, it will depend how long that takes and how good of a job the membership thinks you will have done at the 10 yr point in time.

Here is a hint..... there is no campaign because other than a few on this board who claim to be UA mechanics, or a few former amfa leaders who were shunned by the IBT, there is very little complaint.

Consider this; At UA very recently the Teamsters negotiating committee walked away from the table. Where is the outrage? Where are all the comments and subject headings for this? Why are there very few i any topic headlines related to this?

The answer is there are few. The fact is; due to the IBT's leadership and planning during our last round of negotiations the members of both airlines are in a very good position to wait out the company. How many times have you been able to say that in your career? In my near 30 years the answer is 1. I am making the highest wages I ever have with very good benefits and the contract offers plenty of ways to add to my monthly income as needed.

The Teamsters have done very well for us here at UA. They could help to change the position at AA and US Air as well.

 

[bigjets]

Something I have noticed, a lot of mechs are disappointed with AMFA for blowing their shining moment, and are not in favor of the IAM any longer with their collusion with the TWU for representing all the New American mechs with two unions (which comes across as two unions trying to protect their dues coming in, but which is more about the big picture of trying to build up the AFL CIO numbers without in fighting. The AFL CIO must have decided that at a conference in some resort or five star hotel, without thinking that the mechs of the New American have not been satisfied with their representation for decades, Too much of these guys looking at each other saying ya you're right, we know what is good for them, which worked in the 30s with uneducated workers, but mechs are educated and fed up.) the IAM blew it as they probably could have won against the TWU. a lot of guys I talk to see the IBT as the TWU with higher dues, but will vote for that over the TWU, looking at the UAL mechs at $38 an hour and a $11k signing bonus, compared to what the TWU has done to us, I mean for us.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

There is not any direct relationship between the Central States "Bailout" and the UPS Freight. The only issue was the time relation to the General President election and an easy target to create doubt and controversy. Bottom line, the members wanted a secure future and voted for the change and the members at UPS Freight signed the cards and wanted to become Teamsters. Those that are upset and use this as a talking point are the ones still in the struggling Central States because they feel betrayed since UPS was such a large contributor. UPS and it's Teamster members took advantage of a legal yet expensive opportunity to do what was right for their futures. Would you rather the members were ignored by Hoffa and the Teamster leadership?

....There is not any direct relationship between the Central States "Bailout" and the UPS Freight......

And your LIES continue.

http://www.labornotes.org/2007/11/teamsters-trade-gains-1997-ups-strike-deal-organize-members-freight-division

While a good read in its entirety, the section entitled - TRADING FOR NEW MEMBERS - holds a particularly pertinent citation form a teamster Vice President.

...According to Teamsters Vice President Ken Hall, who spearheaded negotiations, the company has agreed to card check for all of UPS Freight if the UPS parcel contract is ratified. The union reportedly plans on using the Indianapolis contract as a template for the rest of UPS Freight....

Card check for UPS Freight/Overnite only if the UPS agreement, allowing UPS management out of central states pension, is ratified.

Looks like a direct relationship to me.

Nice try.

 

[Anomaly]

....There is not any direct relationship between the Central States "Bailout" and the UPS Freight......

And your LIES continue.

http://www.labornote...reight-division

While a good read in its entirety, the section entitled - TRADING FOR NEW MEMBERS - holds a particularly pertinent citation form a teamster Vice President.




Card check for UPS Freight/Overnite only if the UPS agreement, allowing UPS management out of central states pension, is ratified.

Looks like a direct relationship to me.

Nice try.

BULL SH!T

You contend that one thing was traded for another. This article does not prove it. I stand by what I wrote and the word from one who was there.

Further, it is telling that you would dissect only a small portion of my response to you and ignore the other points. I will post it again below for your benefit.

One of the positives about the Teamsters is the ease in which you can get answers to questions when you take the time to ask. If you go to the contact us page of the AA mechanics for Teamsters website http://www.teamster.org/aamx you get a number of phone numbers and e-mail contacts.

I went fishing for a couple of days but sent an e-mail asking for an explanation to TSH's accusations before I left. Through one of the contacts on the page, I was forwarded a reply from one of the UPS member negotiators who had first hand knowledge of the Central States subject. He was on the negotiating team at the time UPS exited the plan.

The first thing I learned, is that Fred Gragare sits on the Central States board of directors. WTF? No wonder he is looking for a person to point the finger at. Central States has been in trouble for some time and while I am not blaming Mr Gragare, I think it suspect that he play politics with this subject. He mentions in his video that it was the $500 million dollars in benefit contributions that kept Central States alive but never mentions that UPS paid $6.2 BILLION to the plan in order to exit. 😉

Also, according to the reply....

During negotiations UPS made it very clear that they wanted out of the Central States because of the fact that it was struggling. They said they would do whatever it took to get out even offering to pay the 6.2 Billion dollars exit liability in addition to creating a new fund with comparable benefits for the members that it affected. UPS did not want their withdraw liability to continue to increase, nor did they want to risk their employees retirement future.

UPS did not push to get out of any of the other Teamster funds just the struggling Central States. The new fund was created and the members voted for it. For example, the UPS members in my Local are still in my Locals Plan and UPS withdrawing from this plan was never even brought up during the negotiations that I sat on during the same year.

TDU claims that Hoffa let UPS out of the fund and it is going to cause the fund to tank. The fact is the membership allowed UPS out of the fund because they voted for it. The thought among the workers was do we stay in the struggling fund or do we attempt to go into a fresh new fund that would be more stable. Not to speak for Hoffa or the small parcel division but the thoughts were the Central States would be getting a 6.2 billion dollar boost to help the fund. Unfortunately the timing wasn't good and with the market at the time the 6.2 billion didn't seem to help the fund much with the fact that other companies that are party to the fund are struggling such as YRC etc.

Finally, Overnite was notoriously anti union and fought any organized labor group that wanted in. UPS purchased Overnite to be able to be competitive and offer our shippers a much wider range of services. They did not see the same advantage in fighting the Teamsters and in fact realized that cooperation would be needed if they ever wanted the two companies to work together. Having one Union and one Non Union would not be a option for us especially since these former Overnite guys have been coming to us for years wanting to be Teamsters. UPS agreed to card check and they are now Temasters.

There is not any direct relationship between the Central States "Bailout" and the UPS Freight. The only issue was the time relation to the General President election and an easy target to create doubt and controversy. Bottom line, the members wanted a secure future and voted for the change and the members at UPS Freight signed the cards and wanted to become Teamsters. Those that are upset and use this as a talking point are the ones still in the struggling Central States because they feel betrayed since UPS was such a large contributor. UPS and it's Teamster members took advantage of a legal yet expensive opportunity to do what was right for their futures. Would you rather the members were ignored by Hoffa and the Teamster leadership?

If the market would of jumped and the investment returns would've been better; the 6.2 billion withdraw would of been looked at as a great decision. Either way it was the members that voted.

 

[TRAVIS]

The AMFA boys using IAM propaganda on you??? You did tell them that it also didn't work for the IAM!!!!

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

BULL SH!T

You contend that one thing was traded for another. This article does not prove it. I stand by what I wrote and the word from one who was there.

Further, it is telling that you would dissect only a small portion of my response to you and ignore the other points. I will post it again below for your benefit.

Really?

Is that the best you got? ...... I stand by what I wrote and the word from one who was there ......

Yeah, what you wrote is BS and you know it.

A video with a teamster Vice President explaining what happened to other teamsters

A respected Labor publication citing another teamster Vice President who was also -as you say- "THERE".

Now to hear you tell it, they're lying and you got the truth from "somebody" who was there.

Nice try.

Not that I need to continue this exposition of your ignorance but here is yet another link confirming that UPS Freight/Overnite card check was conditional on the UPS National contracts ratification .... you know, the one that allowed UPS management out of the Central States Pension.

http://tdu.org/news/ups-freight-indianapolis-contract

In a conference call with local unions on Oct. 2, Ken Hall and James Hoffa reported that there is a "card check" deal with UPS Freight, which will make it easier to organize the various terminals. If the majority of workers at a terminal sign Teamster cards that are independently verified, the company will recognize and bargain with the Teamsters Union at that barn.

The union agreed to management's demand to make that card check agreement conditional on ratification of the UPS national contract, including the break-out of 44,000 Teamsters from the Central States Fund. That was management's central demand in national bargaining. As reported on the call, signing of cards cannot start until after the whole UPS contract process is done.

You go right on blathering ....There is not ANY direct relationship between the Central States "Bailout" and the UPS Freight.....

Its just more of the standard teamster BS we've come to expect from you.

 

[Anomaly]

Really?

Is that the best you got? ...... I stand by what I wrote and the word from one who was there ......

Yeah, what you wrote is BS and you know it.

A video with a teamster Vice President explaining what happened to other teamsters

A respected Labor publication citing another teamster Vice President who was also -as you say- "THERE".

Now to hear you tell it, they're lying and you got the truth from "somebody" who was there.

Nice try.

Not that I need to continue this exposition of your ignorance but here is yet another link confirming that UPS Freight/Overnite card check was conditional on the UPS National contracts ratification .... you know, the one that allowed UPS management out of the Central States Pension.

http://tdu.org/news/...apolis-contract





You go right on blathering ....There is not ANY direct relationship between the Central States "Bailout" and the UPS Freight.....

Its just more of the standard teamster BS we've come to expect from you.

No, Gragare was not in on the UPS negotiations as you say. He was on the board for Central States and was campaigning for the job of General President against Hoffa. He states this in his opening remarks. Do you truly believe all campaign speeches and trust them as gospel? That is all you have shown here. A campaign speech. Good luck with that.

All your blundering failed to address the other points of my posts. No retort from you? Now that is a surprise :huh: :huh:

 

[Anomaly]

No, Gragare was not in on the UPS negotiations as you say. He was on the board for Central States and was campaigning for the job of General President against Hoffa. He states this in his opening remarks. Do you truly believe all campaign speeches and trust them as gospel? That is all you have shown here. A campaign speech. Good luck with that.

All your blundering failed to address the other points of my posts. No retort from you? Now that is a surprise :huh: :huh:

By the way, what do you think Fred Gragare's message would have been if Hoffa had forced the UPS members in to staying with the Central States? You got snookered by a political campaign dude. Happens sometimes....

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

No, Gragare was not in on the UPS negotiations as you say. He was on the board for Central States and was campaigning for the job of General President against Hoffa. He states this in his opening remarks. Do you truly believe all campaign speeches and trust them as gospel? That is all you have shown here. A campaign speech. Good luck with that.

All your blundering failed to address the other points of my posts. No retort from you? Now that is a surprise :huh: :huh:

So you're still trying to defend the indefensible, and now you're so desperate you resort to trying to lie about what I said.

I never said Gegare was in the UPS negotiations, I listed TWO teamster VPs - read it again.

From my post🙁emphasis mine)

Yeah, what you wrote is BS and you know it.

A video with a teamster Vice President explaining what happened to other teamsters

A respected Labor publication citing another teamster Vice President who was also -as you say- "THERE".

Now to hear you tell it, they're lying and you got the truth from "somebody" who was there.

Nice try.

The Vice President I'm referring to is Ken Hall who was most certainly "THERE"

Again from the Labornotes article :

According to Teamsters Vice President Ken Hall, who spearheaded negotiations, the company has agreed to card check for all of UPS Freight if the UPS parcel contract is ratified.

As for your ridiculous attempt to try and dismiss this as simple union political maneuvering, perhaps you should try educating yourself.

Start by checking the dates on the LaborNotes and TDU articles. Fred Gegare ran against Hoffa in the 2011 National election, both of the articles are dated approximately 4 YEARS earlier - 2007.

The teamsters let UPS out of the Central States Pension in exchange for card check on UPS Freight/Overnite, and none of your lies and rhetorical nonsense are going to change that obvious fact.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

By the way, what do you think Fred Gragare's message would have been if Hoffa had forced the UPS members in to staying with the Central States? You got snookered by a political campaign dude. Happens sometimes....

I have know idea what he'd say. I'm curious what Hoffa said to all the remaining participants in Central States after he allowed UPS to bail out.

Thats what you can't seem to grasp, those members in Central States NOT at UPS never got a say, never got a vote.

Suppose the ibt gets in at AA, the membership is polled and votes overwhelmingly to join the teamsters Western Conference Pension, arguably one of the best teamster plans at the moment, its negotiated into a CBA and ratified.

What protects the AA membership from Hoffa pulling the same stunt as he did at Central states and letting other groups out, thereby undermining those members that remain in plan?

Nothing and thats the real threat.

 

[Anomaly]

I have know idea what he'd say. I'm curious what Hoffa said to all the remaining participants in Central States after he allowed UPS to bail out.

Thats what you can't seem to grasp, those members in Central States NOT at UPS never got a say, never got a vote.

Suppose the ibt gets in at AA, the membership is polled and votes overwhelmingly to join the teamsters Western Conference Pension, arguably one of the best teamster plans at the moment, its negotiated into a CBA and ratified.

What protects the AA membership from Hoffa pulling the same stunt as he did at Central states and letting other groups out, thereby undermining those members that remain in plan?

Nothing and thats the real threat.

The point that you ignore is that the members of UPS wanted out of a struggling fund as much as the employer. You also sidestep the fact that it cost UPS $6.2 BILLION dollars to get out.

Do you expect me to believe that you, Fred Gragare, or a sitting Teamster president would rather force a group of members into staying in a plan to which an overwhelming majority voted to get out?

The idea of politics is to find something that your opponent did and argue the opposite. I have no doubt that given the exact same set of circumstances had Gragare been the GP the exact same scenario would have taken place. It was never up to General President Hoffa to allow them to get out. The members VOTED for it and UPS was WILLING to pony up the funds to see it through. The members wanted out and the price tag paid in full by UPS (not Hoffa) was $6,200,000,000.00

I think a price tag like that would secure most funds. At least, that is the intent of an expensive exit liability.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The point that you ignore is that the members of UPS wanted out of a struggling fund as much as the employer. You also sidestep the fact that it cost UPS $6.2 BILLION dollars to get out.

Do you expect me to believe that you, Fred Gragare, or a sitting Teamster president would rather force a group of members into staying in a plan to which an overwhelming majority voted to get out?

The idea of politics is to find something that your opponent did and argue the opposite. I have no doubt that given the exact same set of circumstances had Gragare been the GP the exact same scenario would have taken place. It was never up to General President Hoffa to allow them to get out. The members VOTED for it and UPS was WILLING to pony up the funds to see it through. The members wanted out and the price tag paid in full by UPS (not Hoffa) was $6,200,000,000.00

I think a price tag like that would secure most funds. At least, that is the intent of an expensive exit liability.

UPS MANAGEMENT was the driver to get out of the pension, while the membership voted on the final agreement, it was the company pushing proposal.

http://www.tdu.org/news/central-states-pull-out-proposed-new-ups-pension-plan

...October 17, 2007: The proposed tentative agreement would pull 44,000 full-timers out of the Central States Pension Plan and put them into a new UPS Plan.

That was the company’s number one goal in bargaining. ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aNaEBuFymjhg&refer=us

...The contract, if approved by the employees, would fulfill UPS's decade-old goal of withdrawing from the Central States Fund, a multiemployer pension plan for 42,000 Teamsters members at the company.....

http://makeupsdeliver.org/the-teamster-benefit-divide/

...Hoffa let UPS pull out of the Central States and gave UPS Freight a free pass on paying Teamster benefits. Now Teamster members are paying the price....

Holding on to the Central States Plan was one of the major issues in the 1997 strike.

http://www.labornotes.org/2007/10/labor-notes-interviews-former-teamsters-general-president-ron-carey-ups-contract

...LN: The next thing I wanted to talk with you about is probably one of the most important elements of the current agreement. UPS wants to move 44,000 Teamsters out of the Central States Pension Fund. What effect is that going to have?
RC: Well, first of all, UPS always wanted to take control of Teamster pensions. That’s not new.
If they succeed in the Central States, UPS will save billions by reducing their pension contributions. Teamster members will pay the price for that, with weaker pensions, company dominated plans, now and in the future....

As for the $6.2 billion that wasn't a sidestep that I did ignore because its immaterial to the topic at hand. Once they (UPS) were in Central States they were legally/contractually bound to pay to get out. The amount UPS paid has no bearing on the fact that those left behind in Central States had absolutely NO SAY in the deal from the start. That is the threat that American Mechanics, USAirways Mechanics, and any others the ibt is trying to peddle their wares to needs to be fully aware of. If they get into a teamster plan, nothings to stop the exact same thing from happening to them the next time Hoffa decides to cut a deal.

The teamsters gave UPS an out on the pension, in exchange for card check, and the membership remaining in Central States are suffering because of it.

As for the rest of your missive, you can go right on claiming that's not what happened, or union politics, whatever.

The fact remains this all came out in 2007 ..... YEARS before Fred Gegare made his first campaign video.