TWU,TEAMSTERS AND AA

[FWAAA]

You gotta love a union that promises "replace the TWU with the IBT and we'll force AA to the bargaining table to reopen your concessionary contract even though no employer has ever been forced to open section 6 negotiations in such situations. We'll cite to some inapplicable and irrelevant authority involving a combination of workgroups and argue in court (fight like hell for you) that AA will have to reopen your contract."

And the sad thing is, there are probably many ignorant TWU-represented employees at AA who hear that and say "I like them odds."

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

So in the 85 plus years that the RLA has been in existence, where scores if not hundreds of times workers have changed representation and in all those cases except one the change did not open the contract you still claim that if we go IBT that they can force AA to open the contract. OK, going to need more than that to convince me.

From one or all of these teamsters supporters claiming that a change representation allows FORCED section 6 talks I want to see the proofcase by case.

To help your quest

Here are representation cases determinations from 1998 to 2013 http://www.nmb.gov/r...on/decmenu.html
if you want before 1998 you can get them here. http://kas.cuadra.co...h=nmbks/nmb.web

Looking forward to you providing us with where teamsters or any other union did what you are saying they can do.

BTW to Anomaly and others our proof is every case ever handled by the NMB for a change of representation iand the links to every case.

Your proof is........!!!! We wait patiently LOL

 

[Rogallo]

You gotta love a union that promises "replace the TWU with the IBT and we'll force AA to the bargaining table to reopen your concessionary contract even though no employer has ever been forced to open section 6 negotiations in such situations. We'll cite to some inapplicable and irrelevant authority involving a combination of workgroups and argue in court (fight like hell for you) that AA will have to reopen your contract."

And the sad thing is, there are probably many ignorant TWU-represented employees at AA who hear that and say "I like them odds."

All ya have to do is give 'em enough for a new F250 or a bass boat and ya get a contract passed!!

 

[swamt]

Another great post from you

Did I miss something? Where is your proof? Several people arguing against an opinion does not equal proof. Did you miss that in law school?

You can pick the case apart all you want over and over on these threads, but that still offers no real assurance of either side, yours or the IBT attorneys. Until the case is heard and lost in a court of law, I see no evidence of proof. I can't believe you are still smoldering over this yourself swamt?

Past history are the examples used in the courts. Show us where this has happen in or out of the court systems nation wide and in the complete history of aircraft mechanics with union change in representation where the in coming union was able to force the company to renego the existing contract prior to the amendable date. If you are merely going by that dumb-a$$ attorney (Josh M.) and what he says he can do, man, you guys really are gonna be in for a shocker. This guy would be an idiot to waste the unions members dues to try and fight this issue, it has never ever been done in the past. They will go by case history and shut him down in his tracts. Watch and learn people. You guys just better hope the teamsters never make it in at AA, therefore you guys won't have to worry about this issue. Both AMFA and the IAM have already put it out that they cannot and will not re-open the current concessions contract if/when they were to get in at AA...

 

[700UW]

That isnt totally true, the IAM has stated once the CBAs are settled at US, they will seek a JCBA with AA, so the bankrupt contracts will be on the table for re-negotiation.

 

[swamt]

That isnt totally true, the IAM has stated once the CBAs are settled at US, they will seek a JCBA with AA, so the bankrupt contracts will be on the table for re-negotiation.

That is a different scenario than what we are talking about. A new JCBA has nothing to do with what the teamsters are promising/guaranteeing. They said they will force the company to "open existing contract" and "re-nego" the existing contract. The only way this will happen is IF the company happily agrees to do so. Yes we all know that after a merger the remaining union of representation on property will work to get a JCBA, however, this has nothing to do with what the teamsters are promicing the AA and UAL mechanics. Speaking of JCBA's where is it at UAL? Why is it taking the teamsters with the same union at CAL to take over 4 years for a JCBA?? Anyone know why?

 

[Real tired]

"Settled at US." That's a riot !!!

It's been 2 years already and we've gotten nowhere, other than asking to be released because the talks have broken down. Remember, it's AWA we're dealing with now. The masters of stall.

Now we have a JCBA to look forward too when we merge? My best guess is 5 years.

 

[700UW]

Actually the VP of labor relations is Al Hemenway, he was PSA, then US, and Ron Harbinson was PI then US and Tom McMullen is US, no one at the table for the company is old HP.

And Al is a piece of work they want a two year deal, and I know whats on the table and it hopefully will be out shortly.

The IAM is asking XXX for and the company refuses, they dont think your worth what the IAM is asking for.

 

[Real tired]

Thanks for the info.

But as long as Doug is in charge, it's still the AWA playbook. Stall. Just look at the pilots and F/A's. It's been years.

And what scares me is, now with the "association", we could be separate ops for years down the road, just like the pilots are now.

 

[700UW]

The pilots is because of the seniority issue, the FAs yep took 8 years, inexcusable.

You wont be separate ops with the association, the association doesnt take effect until SCS is filed and the IAM wont file until you have a new cba and the twu wont file either.

The minute you get a new cba, JCBA talks will start.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Got another piece of teamster propaganda in the mail today. I called the number on the flyer again but again no answer.

How did the teamsters get my mailing address when I never gave it to them?

No matter how many pieces of propaganda the teamsters send me I am still writing in AMFA on a ballot!

GO AMFA!

 

[paul1]

Sorry to say ken , but it looks like AMFA is DOA in ord. Guys are not happy with how they handled things.

How in all the time we tried and tried to get AMFA it took years, and the teamsters get it done in less than 12 months.

The TWU screwed are local over in ORD, guys are pissed of with the TWU.

I seen a lot of fliers out there that claimed the teamsters had the support of many stations, but not ORD. Well that has changed. Guys are looking forward to the vote. The Twu ,they feel justs keeps screwing us over. Just look they want 5% of are 4.8% equity stake. What do we pay dues for?

 

[Anomaly]

Past history are the examples used in the courts. Show us where this has happen in or out of the court systems nation wide and in the complete history of aircraft mechanics with union change in representation where the in coming union was able to force the company to renego the existing contract prior to the amendable date. If you are merely going by that dumb-a$$ attorney (Josh M.) and what he says he can do, man, you guys really are gonna be in for a shocker. This guy would be an idiot to waste the unions members dues to try and fight this issue, it has never ever been done in the past. They will go by case history and shut him down in his tracts. Watch and learn people. You guys just better hope the teamsters never make it in at AA, therefore you guys won't have to worry about this issue. Both AMFA and the IAM have already put it out that they cannot and will not re-open the current concessions contract if/when they were to get in at AA...

That is a different scenario than what we are talking about. A new JCBA has nothing to do with what the teamsters are promising/guaranteeing. They said they will force the company to "open existing contract" and "re-nego" the existing contract. The only way this will happen is IF the company happily agrees to do so. Yes we all know that after a merger the remaining union of representation on property will work to get a JCBA, however, this has nothing to do with what the teamsters are promicing the AA and UAL mechanics. Speaking of JCBA's where is it at UAL? Why is it taking the teamsters with the same union at CAL to take over 4 years for a JCBA?? Anyone know why?

You are very arrogant for a guy who can't spell negotiation. Your uneducated guess of the practice of law no doubt comes from reading too many blogs. What stands out most about your posts, unfortunately, is your practice of name calling when your arguments get weak. Why so childish?

I would hardly characterize a graduate from Boston College and Georgetown University Law School as a dumbass simply because you disagree with his legal opinion. I would understand it more if he took this position and failed miserably, but that has not happened....yet. You also argue that it is a poor financial decision for an attorney to argue a position that will directly benefit the members. I just don't get that? Would you seriously rather that the union lawyers do not create arguments to benefit the members in order to save dues dollars? Isn't that why we pay dues in the first place? Don't we want a collective fund set aside in order to have legal matters argued on our behalf ? I for one am tired of my union telling me "we tried to fix it but there is nothing we can do". The Teamsters at least at UA have been far more aggressive than any other union.

Additionally, perhaps you missed this part of the conversation, but it was already pointed out recently that the merger between AA and US has changed the dynamics in play. There will be an amalgamation of the two contracts which will open opportunities for negotiations regardless of who wins. You are representing amfa and continue to deny the possibilities of AA mechanics re-opening discussions for the contract duration of 6 years. TWU and the IAM have not indicated much as far as opening the agreement either which leaves the IBT as the only union that takes the position that something better needs to be done immediately for mechanics at AA and US. Why are you still obsessively complaining what the IBT intends to do for the benefit of the mechanics at US and AA?

Finally the subject you repeatedly bring up regarding the UA agreement is misconstrued at best. Your claim that it has taken over four years to reach an amalgamated agreement or as you call it a JCBA is a lie. How can it be four years if the merger announcement happened officially just over 3 years ago?

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/united-and-continental-announce-merger/

The merger was announced in May 2010, the Teamsters were in the midst of negotiating the UA contract at this time and CO had just entered into a new 4 year deal with the carrier on January 1, 2009. The IBT negotiation committee which represents the membership made the decision to continue on with single negotiations for UA who had been behind several airlines in pay and wages for many years. The thought was to catch up to the industry first and then work on amalgamating the two agreements. This plan worked and UA mechanics entered into a new 18 month agreement January 1, 2010 with a substantial increase in pay and benefits. The IBT representing the mechanics for three airlines that create this merger have been in discussions with the combined carrier for the better part of 2013 in order to further align the three contracts and make even more improvements for pay and benefits. Every article has been discussed leaving the overall subject of pay the last item open on the agenda. The parties could not agree on the overall monetary amounts and talks were broken off. Simple as that.

You asked for an explanation.

 

[1AA]

Sorry to say ken , but it looks like AMFA is DOA in ord. Guys are not happy with how they handled things.

How in all the time we tried and tried to get AMFA it took years, and the teamsters get it done in less than 12 months.

The TWU screwed are local over in ORD, guys are pissed of with the TWU.

I seen a lot of fliers out there that claimed the teamsters had the support of many stations, but not ORD. Well that has changed. Guys are looking forward to the vote. The Twu ,they feel justs keeps screwing us over. Just look they want 5% of are 4.8% equity stake. What do we pay dues for?

Teamsters did what in 12 months? Filed? That does not guarantee a vote. AMFA filed in 04 and we thought we had enough cards. I'll wait until the decision is made. Then I will write in AMFA if a ballot comes my way. Be careful what you wish for with the IBT. You might just get it. Before you pull the trigger on the Teamsters compare constitutions. Industrial unionism vs Class and Craft unions. If I had no other choice between the IBT and the TWU I would vote for the TWU. As bad as they are and have screwed us over and over the IBT is worse. All you have to do is compare constitutions between the two. The TWU and IBT are similar but the IBT is worse in many ways. Be thankful the NMB rules allows a write in choice. AMFA will be that choice. SWA kicked out the Teamsters and never looked back. They have no regrets. You do not hear the guys at SWA or Alaska bithin about AMFA. Do you? Must be a reason why. Do a search on the IBT and all their corruptions, pension funds and briberies. Is this what you want? We are skilled professionals. We have a skilled professional union to choose. Do not go with another Industrial union that will make nothing but promises they can not keep. They spent millions $$$ on this drive. If they failed to get a vote it is no big deal for them. They do this all the time. Spend, spend and spend more of their members dues money on drives. They have a bad record on successful drives. Do not believe everything you hear at work. Look it up for yourself. A vote for the Teamsters is a vote to loose your pension. They see $$$$$ in our pension. That is all they see. $$$$$$ They could care less about you and me.

Here is one story you should read about the Teamsters. Then ask yourself is this the union I want to represent me?

http://www.freep.com...ownsend-produce

 

[1AA]

You are very arrogant for a guy who can't spell negotiation. Your uneducated guess of the practice of law no doubt comes from reading too many blogs. What stands out most about your posts, unfortunately, is your practice of name calling when your arguments get weak. Why so childish?

I would hardly characterize a graduate from Boston College and Georgetown University Law School as a dumbass simply because you disagree with his legal opinion. I would understand it more if he took this position and failed miserably, but that has not happened....yet. You also argue that it is a poor financial decision for an attorney to argue a position that will directly benefit the members. I just don't get that? Would you seriously rather that the union lawyers do not create arguments to benefit the members in order to save dues dollars? Isn't that why we pay dues in the first place? Don't we want a collective fund set aside in order to have legal matters argued on our behalf ? I for one am tired of my union telling me "we tried to fix it but there is nothing we can do". The Teamsters at least at UA have been far more aggressive than any other union.

Additionally, perhaps you missed this part of the conversation, but it was already pointed out recently that the merger between AA and US has changed the dynamics in play. There will be an amalgamation of the two contracts which will open opportunities for negotiations regardless of who wins. You are representing amfa and continue to deny the possibilities of AA mechanics re-opening discussions for the contract duration of 6 years. TWU and the IAM have not indicated much as far as opening the agreement either which leaves the IBT as the only union that takes the position that something better needs to be done immediately for mechanics at AA and US. Why are you still obsessively complaining what the IBT intends to do for the benefit of the mechanics at US and AA?

Finally the subject you repeatedly bring up regarding the UA agreement is misconstrued at best. Your claim that it has taken over four years to reach an amalgamated agreement or as you call it a JCBA is a lie. How can it be four years if the merger announcement happened officially just over 3 years ago?

http://dealbook.nyti...nnounce-merger/

The merger was announced in May 2010, the Teamsters were in the midst of negotiating the UA contract at this time and CO had just entered into a new 4 year deal with the carrier on January 1, 2009. The IBT negotiation committee which represents the membership made the decision to continue on with single negotiations for UA who had been behind several airlines in pay and wages for many years. The thought was to catch up to the industry first and then work on amalgamating the two agreements. This plan worked and UA mechanics entered into a new 18 month agreement January 1, 2010 with a substantial increase in pay and benefits. The IBT representing the mechanics for three airlines that create this merger have been in discussions with the combined carrier for the better part of 2013 in order to further align the three contracts and make even more improvements for pay and benefits. Every article has been discussed leaving the overall subject of pay the last item open on the agenda. The parties could not agree on the overall monetary amounts and talks were broken off. Simple as that.

You asked for an explanation.

Still no JCBA. And yes we know we have to have a JCBA to streamline labor at the new AA. That is not the same as the Teamsters claim that changing representation the company must open the contract. If contracts are in place the company does not have to do squat! But of course you will continue to push and say must open it or the Teamsters will take AA to court. Try taking AA to court on that issue. They successfully entered into BK with over 5 billion in the bank and a record order of commercial aircraft with all the financing in place before during and after we exit BK. They successfully broke our contracts and forced us into another concessionary contract with the threat of abrogation if we did not accept the current agreement. They know how to use the laws in their favor. And you think that the Teamsters are going to win against AA with what? ROLMFAO.