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U.S. Pilot Labor Thread 9/28 - 10/05

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First, Res, Im not sure the reason for the inane Stevie wonder reference. very poor taste.

Snoop mighty sensitive aren't you? Do you have another example of a well know blind person? It was just a reference. Would you feel better if he had said even a blind person can see this?



Second, until theres a single list, furloughs are by the two current contract seniority lists. Looks like the company followed the rules.

Wrong again. You really should read the T/A before you start spouting off about things.

7. America West may hire new pilots if all pilots on the US Airways seniority list have been offered recall to US Airways or have been offered a pilot position at America West. New pilots hired during the Separate Operations will be placed by their date of hire on a third seniority list entitled "New Hire Seniority List," will be junior to all pilots on the pilot seniority lists of America West and US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement, and will continue to be junior to those pilots on the integrated seniority list of America West and US Airways pilots.

According to the T/A there are THREE lists. West, East and New Hire Seniority List not two. So the company is not following the rules. All of the new hires are suppose to be furloughed before either west or east pilots.

 
The Delta-NWA pilots vehemently rejected ALPA merger policy and are going with a panel of three arbitrators. Why would they do that? Do you honestly believe that the hosing Nicolau gave the USAirways pilots didn't play into this unprecedented decision to soundly turn their backs on ALPA in this transaction?

Please explain how NW/DAL is rejecting ALPA merger policy? As you say a panel of ARBITRATORS. It is still going to arbitration. No change to current policy. No turning their back on ALPA policy. The difference will be they will live up to their bargain.

You are correct on one item. I am sure that they changed to a three panel instead of only one because of the excessive whining by the east. What were all of the Insults spewed? Senile old man, Old St. Nic, lazy, doting, and many others. Even though the two pilot neutrals agreed with the decision. With three arbitrators either side will not have an individual to attack.



Interestingly enough, Richard Bloch is one of the arbitrators on their panel. If you get a chance, read Mr. Bloch's arbitration decision regarding the US/AW integration of the dispatchers lists. Both the US and AW dispatchers' sides made virtually the same arguments as those presented to George Nicolau. Arbitrator Bloch, without the burden of dotage, actually came up with a logical, defensible conclusion. It went straight DOH.

Yes I read the award. If you read it with any kind of rationality you will understand why he decided the way he did. He did not decide to use DOH because of DOH. He used DOH because of the differences in the contract. Yes both sides used the same arguments. Two different circumstances. Read it closely.

The reason that it went DOH was because the west dispatchers were going to get a significant raise with a new contract. That was going to make up for any loss of seniority. Sound familiar?

So not only does the east want to staple 80% of the west. You also want 80% of the contract improvements. So simply looking at the method without the reason is short sighted. If it makes you feel better about the wrong that you east guys want to do go ahead. But it makes you look foolish pointing to something that does not support your reasoning.
 
Please explain how NW/DAL is rejecting ALPA merger policy? As you say a panel of ARBITRATORS. It is still going to arbitration. No change to current policy. No turning their back on ALPA policy. The difference will be they will live up to their bargain.

Where in ALPA merger policy does it call for a panel of three arbitrators? Short answer, it doesn't. Has any other ALPA-ALPA merger been done with three arbitrators before? Short answer, no.

ALPA merger policy is fairly specific on the process, and NW/DL is not using the ALPA process because it is inherently flawed. Even the ALPA Executive Board is studying changes to the merger policy in order to keep more pilot groups from bolting from the mother ship.
 
THERE ARE CURRENTLY
44 AMERICA WEST PILOTS
ON FURLOUGH


Fellow pilots,

USAPA released an update yesterday morning announcing that their Merger Committee has passed a date-of-hire seniority list to the Company. As of today, we have received no word from the Company about their plans to either accept or reject this list. Although it is possible that the Company may continue to refrain from commenting on the issue, they cannot do so forever. At some point, Mr. Parker is going to need to decide to either honor his legal and ethical obligations, or placate those who continuously seek to sabotage anything and everything that stands in the way of their overreaching expectations.

USAPA also recently disseminated a press release that apparently seeks to draw attention to the fact that the Company has yet to complete operational integration. Although this press release received almost no traction in the media, USAPA obviously hoped that this release would compel the Company to accept the date-of-hire list, and complete a contract in relatively short order. We do find it ironic that USAPA would make an issue of separate operations when it is USAPA who encouraged the pull down of joint contract talks 16 months ago and it is USAPA who is attempting to deviate from the integration "blue-prints" defined in the Transition Agreement (which includes the Nicolau Award).

Make no mistake - this "date of hire" seniority list is nothing but a blatant, greedy, and underhanded maneuver by other pilots to advance their own careers at the expense of each and every America West pilot. This list was created without the benefit of a hearing, evidence, testimony, facts, or a neutral third party. It was created without any reference to principles of equality, fairness, or due process. Rather, this list was created by one (and only one) side of the integration who intends to spare no cost in it's quest to unilaterally impose it on the other, in defiance of anything and everything legal, ethical, moral, and just.

Yesterday's news has prompted us to begin ramping up our legal efforts. As we promised both Mr. Parker and Mr. Bradford on April 17th, if either party modifies the Nicolau Award, we will immediately seek both injunctive relief and damages against both parties in the court system. Mr. Parker now has a small window of opportunity to steer this merger back on track before he and Mr. Bradford find themselves in court (again).

Finally, it is with much regret that we remind everybody that yesterday, Dave Odell and 44 other America West pilots who brought jobs to the merger, were furloughed out of seniority order. Also, the Company recently sent another 50 (approximately) furlough notices to America West pilots who are now slated to lose their jobs effective November 1st. No America West pilot should ever forget this injustice, nor should we ever yield in our lawful efforts to see that this injustice is corrected and restitution is made. Please keep our furloughed brothers and sisters in your thoughts and prayers.

In solidarity,

AWAPPA
SENIORITY INTEGRATION QUOTES

"...we would expect that no employee who already had been furloughed prior to the merger would be permitted to bump an active employee out of a job. Likewise, we expect our unions will recognize a solution that simply 'staples' all employees of one airline to the bottom of the other's seniority list as unacceptable and unconscionable. To that end, because of seniority differences in some groups, straight seniority integration could have an effect similar to that of stapling employees to the bottom of a seniority list, an outcome that is inconsistent with a fair and equitable protocol."

-Doug Parker (America West CEO) and Bruce Lakefield (US Airways CEO), "Joint Statement of Labor Principles", May 2005


"The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline Parties will accept such integrated seniority list..."

-Transition Agreement, September 2005


"The company, along with the East and West ALPA MEC's, agreed in the September 2005 Transition Agreement that the integrated seniority list would be accomplished under the ALPA Merger Policy and would be accepted by the company..."

"...the company will accept the submitted [Nicolau] list."

-Doug Parker, letter to all US Airways pilots, December 20 2007


ALPA Merger Policy specifies 5 goals for seniority list integration. They are, in
no particular order:

Preserve jobs.
Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

ALPA Merger Policy makes no mention of date of hire or any other method of achieving these goals. The Merger Representatives must determine which method or combinations of methods best meet the goals. The goals all address what your seniority will buy upon integration and into the future. This is the yardstick of fairness by which any proposed method of integration must be judged.

When you meet America West pilots, be as welcoming as you can. Remember that the seniority list integration will not be accomplished in the jumpseat, the crewroom, web boards or the hotel van. Trust the process and trust your merger team to do the very best job we can in protecting the best interests of all US Airways pilots.

-US Airways MEC, July 2005


CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: You aren't telling me, Mr. Hershey, that when you were hired back in '89 you took a look at the seniority list and then over the course of time kept looking at it to make sure you were going to be 19 in your retirement, you aren't telling me that are you?

THE WITNESS: No, they actually --

CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: No, that is all I have.

-Nicolau arbitration transcripts, December 13, 2006, pages 1081-1082

[Mr. Hershey, an East pilot who had been on furlough almost four (4) years at the time of the arbitration, testified on behalf of the AAA MEC about the career expectations of East pilots. Mr. Hershey, who has since been recalled, now has nearly 700 pilots active pilots junior to him on the East while West pilots working at the time of the merger are now furloughed.]


"In the US Airways-America West case, the pilots who are most unhappy with the decision undoubtedly are asking themselves whether a little more flexibility in the earlier stages of the proceedings might have served them better."

-United Airlines MEC Merger Committee, July 2007


"This is not to say one could not construct some sort of mid-ground that would attempt to incorporate a methodology utilizing both a mechanical and a date of hire approach. Several factors militate against this. First, these are relatively small units. The West group is comprised of 37 individuals. The East local has 120 active employees with 32 currently on furlough (as of the date of the hearing.) It is logistically difficult to mold a hybrid list, given this small a unit. Moreover, unlike pilot mergers, which often involve companion considerations including aircraft types, differing status and categories and a variety of additional distinctions, the instant case is considerably more basic. These employees, on the other hand, perform the same functions, in essentially the same manner and will operate under a combined agreement that features no fence or any of the other arcane elements peculiar to pilot cases."

-Arbitrator Richard Bloch, America West / US Airways Dispatchers Seniority Award, April 2007

[The quoted text is from a footnote in the Award in which the arbitrator explains why date-of-hire is appropriate in that case, and why a mechanical (ratio) integration would be more likely for a pilot integration.]
 
THERE ARE CURRENTLY
44 AMERICA WEST PILOTS
ON FURLOUGH
We do find it ironic that USAPA would make an issue of separate operations when it is USAPA who encouraged the pull down of joint contract talks 16 months ago and it is USAPA who is attempting to deviate from the integration "blue-prints" defined in the Transition Agreement (which includes the Nicolau Award).


Hummm... USAPA was not in existence 16 months ago... and was therefore not the bargaining agent... You must be confusing them with your beloved ALPA
 
ALPA merger policy is fairly specific on the process, and NW/DL is not using the ALPA process because it is inherently flawed.
Both sides agreed to use three arbitrators instead of one so that's completely within ALPA's policies. But let's face it: even if three arbitrators had ruled on our integration the East's response would've been the same. Without your agist insults of Nicolau you would've just found some other excuse to justify your unethical actions.

I noticed you didn't answer my question. Just in case you missed it I re-ask:
I wonder, if the Delta guys dump ALPA and try to impose a seniority list on NW would USAPA cheer them on?
 
Hummm... USAPA was not in existence 16 months ago... and was therefore not the bargaining agent... You must be confusing them with your beloved ALPA

Are you saying that the USAPA mental-dwarfs weren't active behind the ALPA facade while forming?
 
Snoop mighty sensitive aren't you? Do you have another example of a well know blind person? It was just a reference. Would you feel better if he had said even a blind person can see this?

maybe I am too sensitive. Yes, that would have been better.

According to the T/A there are THREE lists. West, East and New Hire Seniority List not two. So the company is not following the rules. All of the new hires are suppose to be furloughed before either west or east pilots.

maybe so, but I dont have access to the furlough list. maybe a short time violation of the TA, a month or two earlier. bring that to the attention of USAPA. they should file a dispute. If they dont, thats DFR. still not much money difference between being furloughed in october instead of december, unless your the furlough. anyway, you didnt comment on my point, so again, with wins in the hours (west) and RJs numbers (east) all furloughs will be cxed. those protect everyone. arguing about 3 lists only aligns the deck chairs. the other two disputes are more productive, dont you agree? probably not, since you guys rather keep fighting in court for months/years for the nic rather than keep everyone employed. snooper
 
maybe so, but I dont have access to the furlough list. maybe a short time violation of the TA, a month or two earlier. bring that to the attention of USAPA. they should file a dispute. If they dont, thats DFR. still not much money difference between being furloughed in october instead of december, unless your the furlough. anyway, you didnt comment on my point, so again, with wins in the hours (west) and RJs numbers (east) all furloughs will be cxed. those protect everyone. arguing about 3 lists only aligns the deck chairs. the other two disputes are more productive, dont you agree? probably not, since you guys rather keep fighting in court for months/years for the nic rather than keep everyone employed. snooper

Isn't ANY violation of that coveted principle of seniority (whether short or not) a major issue to your union that campaigned on a platform of "seniority matters"?

It is my understanding that some pilots are out as of Oct 1 while there are new hires that won't be furloughed until 5 months from now. I imagine that would make a HUGE difference in both the wallet and in the pressure of finding new employment in time to cover the bills.

Additionally, what happens if the market turns around between now and when the last new hires hit the street? Could you then have new hires continuing at US Airways while others are still out of work? That would seem to again be contrary to signed agreements and USAPA mottos.
 
How about Mr. "We hate you guys" from the recent PHX crew news last month.

New enough for you?

He said that he hated you guys, not that he wanted something he isn't entitled to. He wasn't whining, merely stating his opinion. Although that has played negatively against that individual at least he wasn't hiding on a web board. He looked right at the camera and had the balls to state honestly how he feels. Can you come up with something more relevant?
 
I noticed you didn't answer my question. Just in case you missed it I re-ask:
I wonder, if the Delta guys dump ALPA and try to impose a seniority list on NW would USAPA cheer them on?
No. Can't happen anyway. Moot point.
 
megasnoop, As we post under pseudonyms it is hard to tell when we are sincere and when we are being flippant. To illustrate this I have commented on two topics below. In the first I am just messing with you, but in the second I am serious.

Item one:
It is John McIlvenna who filed the grievance, and he is not mine. Freund did not say that, although when taken out of context by U-Turn it may appear that way. But I am glad he is your hero, but I do not think he will be for long. My heros include my father, Harry S. Truman, Pat Tillman, Mae Jemmison, Abraham Lincoln, and the parents of any high school kid possesing manners. So it is plausible you are one of my heros. But then you would have to have a teen with manners, be a female african american astronaut, or be deceased. Possible, but highly unlikely.

Is that the one your messing with me on? Your list defanitely leaves me out as one of your heros. McIlvenna. Now I got the spelling right. I dont have the Freund quote, but he said it was a negotiating tool and the company didn't have to use it. No context issue there. One dumb thing to say. I only post under one pseudonym. There is a new LCC pilot mesage board where I post under my own name, but guys are careful what they post.


Item two:
So it is Bloch not Block, thanks for the correction. Is that the same Richard Bloch who is arbitrating the NW-Delta seniority integration. I would lay odds it will not go DOH. I actually do read USAPA updates but had not read the 9-27-08 update you refer to, and yes so there is no confusion it was just non-sense I made up and put in quotes, I thought that was self-evident. In one update there was talk of an assesment for a merger fund, sorry I will not be contributing, however if you decide to asses to help pay COBRA for furloughs, I am onboard. Nic4

I guess this is the serious one. Nic4, since your a new guy, your humor, wasnt self-evident. If your an old guy who changed names, I didnt pick up on that. Your right on two counts. Same Bloch and no way it will go DOH. It cant. ALPO merger policy has to be used unless the two sides agree not to. With DAL being so junior, that wont happen. The cobra is in the works. thats easy and makes us all feel a little better. But I doubt if it will have to pay out much. with long-term furloughs (Parker said so, not me making things up), most will find employment pretty fast. Getting a job while still current is a lot safer than sitting at home hoping for that Nic hail-mary. Even probation at Piedmont pays better than unemployment, but not much better. The key to not paying any cobra assessment is wins in the RJ and hours reduction disputes. That should play out in December and January. But back to cobra, unless you want to make a voluntary contribution, I dont think USAPA can get a cent out of a non-member. Same with a merger fund. snooper
 
No. Can't happen anyway. Moot point.
Oh, this is getting interesting. Pray tell, why can't it happen? Is the Delta group not numerically superior to the NW group? Shouldn't they benefit from the "tyranny of the majority" as well or is that sound principle reserved only for the US Airways East pilot group? Please, please, please tell my how a pissed-off Delta group can't do what the Easties did.
 
Both sides agreed to use three arbitrators instead of one so that's completely within ALPA's policies. But let's face it: even if three arbitrators had ruled on our integration the East's response would've been the same. Without your agist insults of Nicolau you would've just found some other excuse to justify your unethical actions.

I noticed you didn't answer my question. Just in case you missed it I re-ask:
I wonder, if the Delta guys dump ALPA and try to impose a seniority list on NW would USAPA cheer them on?

I can't really speak for USAPA, since I have no official capacity other than "Member in Good Standing." Maybe that's why I didn't answer your question.

That being said, if DL dumped ALPA by voting in a new bargaining agent that had DOH as the basis for integration in their C&BL, then I suspect USAPA would be fully supportive of that effort by that pilot group. Personally, I know I would. Whatever formulation they might come up with, it would have to be defensible as fair. The courts have every time said DOH is fair, but I doubt an in-house DL union would come up with that since a DOH list would disadvantage their group. I voted to dump ALPA so that this pilot group could have more control over the course of their careers than ALPA would allow. (BTW, I'm one of the 517 who was a captain here before AW flew their first Dash-8, so Nicolau had no effect on me one way or the other.)

I suspect a reorganization effort was never mounted at NW or DL simply because the numbers weren't there to permit either side to prevail, and each side knew it. So, they decided to preclude a Nicolau-style screw job and agreed to an arbitration that allows three neutral professional arbitrators to decide the outcome. Bravo for them.
 
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