Ual And Usair

[MCI transplant]

I agree. The only way MCI will stay open is if they can find third party work. But the wages at most (if not all repair stations) is at rock bottom and AA can't compete with that. The people at MCI do excellent work and have many years of experience but unfortunately, potentail customers only look at price. I beleive MCI's days are numbered due to lack of work, a very senior workforce that is about ready to retire, and the fact that the base itself is antiquated (approaching 50 years old. It opened in 1957.)

[post="197843"][/post]​

<_< aafsc-----I did think at one time I believed what was told to us! But from the begining I can see I was wrong! a.a. hasn't told us one bet of the truth from day one! If they're going to shut us down, then why play all these games, and just do it!! Frankly I don't think they've got the backbone to do it!!! Contracts' 3rd party work! O.K. for TUL, or AFW, not for MCIE!!! aafsc your 100% correct! No more B.S. a.a.! Do what you have to, and just let us get on with our lifes!!! You know! At least Uncle Carl had the intestonal fortatude to tell you what he was going to do, and then did it! :down: :down: :down:

 

[aafsc]

<_< aafsc-----I did think at one time I believed what was told to us! But from the begining I can see I was wrong! a.a. hasn't told us one bet of the truth from day one! If they're going to shut us down, then why play all these games, and just do it!! Frankly I don't think they've got the backbone to do it!!! Contracts' 3rd party work! O.K. for TUL, or AFW, not for MCIE!!! aafsc your 100% correct! No more B.S. a.a.! Do what you have to, and just let us get on with our lifes!!! You know! At least Uncle Carl had the intestonal fortatude to tell you what he was going to do, and then did it! :down: :down: :down:

[post="198037"][/post]​

MCI transplant, I think in the very beginning when AA acquired most of TWA's assets, including MCI they did plan to perform a lot of AA maintanence there. Don't forget in addition to the TWA aircraft, we were supposed to get 86 aircraft from US air, plus 6 used MD-80s from Alaska air, plus a couple more from the used market. Thats about 100 planes total. Plenty of work for everyone. They talked about hiring thousands of the street (flight attendants, ramp, agents, mechanics, etc.). These people would obviously have been under the TWA people. As you know, the USair-United merger did not go through then all calamities hit (911, SARS, Iraq war, etc.) I certainly hope that MCI can get third party work and stay open. Although the mechanics at MCI make a lot more than mechanics at the non-union shops, the work is superior. You get what you pay for and I hope that potentail third party customers realize this. Hopefully, AA can make a profit from third party work but I would keep it open if it just broke even because you never know when one day you might need the extra capacity. But if MCI can't make money or at least break even, then I think that AA will eventually shut it down. I work at a line station and we are going to take a hit with flight reductions and layoffs. Both former TWA people and origional AA will
be laid off.

 

[MCI transplant]

MCI transplant, I think in the very beginning when AA acquired most of TWA's assets, including MCI they did plan to perform a lot of AA maintanence there. Don't forget in addition to the TWA aircraft, we were supposed to get 86 aircraft from US air, plus 6 used MD-80s from Alaska air, plus a couple more from the used market. Thats about 100 planes total. Plenty of work for everyone. They talked about hiring thousands of the street (flight attendants, ramp, agents, mechanics, etc.). These people would obviously have been under the TWA people. As you know, the USair-United merger did not go through then all calamities hit (911, SARS, Iraq war, etc.) I certainly hope that MCI can get third party work and stay open. Although the mechanics at MCI make a lot more than mechanics at the non-union shops, the work is superior. You get what you pay for and I hope that potentail third party customers realize this. Hopefully, AA can make a profit from third party work but I would keep it open if it just broke even because you never know when one day you might need the extra capacity. But if MCI can't make money or at least break even, then I think that AA will eventually shut it down. I work at a line station and we are going to take a hit with flight reductions and layoffs. Both former TWA people and origional AA will
be laid off.

[post="198165"][/post]​

<_< aafsc-----What your saying about Carty's American Airlines might have been true, but in Arpy's World, there's no room for TWA employees! With workers at STL (TWA) and MCI (TWA) (both 100% senority stations, and the only 100% stations) are the only people getting layed off!!!! At least that's how people at MCI feel! We're questioning American's resove at gettig 3rd party work at MCI at all! With the award of a 737 Navy contract to TUL, most people feel we're being , (how can I say it?) "SHAFTED!!" AGAIN!!!! :angry:

 

[local 12 proud]

GET OVER IT! had AA not bought your defunct carrier you would have been on the street some time ago. the AA employees who built this airline owe you nothing. hey i hear jetblue is hiring, good luck

 

[aafsc]

MCI transplant, I think in the very beginning when AA acquired most of TWA's assets, including MCI they did plan to perform a lot of AA maintanence there. Don't forget in addition to the TWA aircraft, we were supposed to get 86 aircraft from US air, plus 6 used MD-80s from Alaska air, plus a couple more from the used market. Thats about 100 planes total. Plenty of work for everyone. They talked about hiring thousands of the street (flight attendants, ramp, agents, mechanics, etc.). These people would obviously have been under the TWA people. As you know, the USair-United merger did not go through then all calamities hit (911, SARS, Iraq war, etc.) I certainly hope that MCI can get third party work and stay open. Although the mechanics at MCI make a lot more than mechanics at the non-union shops, the work is superior. You get what you pay for and I hope that potentail third party customers realize this. Hopefully, AA can make a profit from third party work but I would keep it open if it just broke even because you never know when one day you might need the extra capacity. But if MCI can't make money or at least break even, then I think that AA will eventually shut it down. I work at a line station and we are going to take a hit with flight reductions and layoffs. Both former TWA people and origional AA will
be laid off.

[post="198165"][/post]​

<_< aafsc-----What your saying about Carty's American Airlines might have been true, but in Arpy's World, there's no room for TWA employees! With workers at STL (TWA) and MCI (TWA) (both 100% senority stations, and the only 100% stations) are the only people getting layed off!!!! At least that's how people at MCI feel! We're questioning American's resove at gettig 3rd party work at MCI at all! With the award of a 737 Navy contract to TUL, most people feel we're being , (how can I say it?) "SHAFTED!!" AGAIN!!!! :angry:

[post="198337"][/post]​

MCI transplant, first I have to disagree with you that former TWA are the only ones getting laid off. At my city they are laying off agents, ramp, and management (former TWA and origional AA , we have no AA mtce here). There are also 450 pilots getting laid off with more to come. At some of the other line stations there will be no flight reduction but they are still cutting heads and at some of these cities its all origional AA employees. At the big meeting, we were told that they don't want to ask for more concessions (but I think they will eventually) they said that they just want to cut the budgets through layoffs. I don't see how were going to make it because during the holidays our load factors are in the 90s. I agree that things are bad, there is a rumor on another website about Delta farming out heavy maintanece of their MD-88 and MD-90 and 757s. I see in sabre that MCI does our 767-200's. I also read that the government is looking for some heavy maintanence work on the militaries 767 that was going to go to boeing. Is this being looked at by the joint committee?

 

[MCI transplant]

MCI transplant, first I have to disagree with you that former TWA are the only ones getting laid off. At my city they are laying off agents, ramp, and management (former TWA and origional AA , we have no AA mtce here). There are also 450 pilots getting laid off with more to come. At some of the other line stations there will be no flight reduction but they are still cutting heads and at some of these cities its all origional AA employees. At the big meeting, we were told that they don't want to ask for more concessions (but I think they will eventually) they said that they just want to cut the budgets through layoffs. I don't see how were going to make it because during the holidays our load factors are in the 90s. I agree that things are bad, there is a rumor on another website about Delta farming out heavy maintanece of their MD-88 and MD-90 and 757s. I see in sabre that MCI does our 767-200's. I also read that the government is looking for some heavy maintanence work on the militaries 767 that was going to go to boeing. Is this being looked at by the joint committee?

[post="198347"][/post]​

<_< aafsc---Again, We're all products of our own little envirements! What I've tryed to convay is that there exects a gap in trust of a.a. management, and our fellow Union brothers and sisters! You have a point in that this is just the first wave of more to lay offs to come! Arpy has said as much! I wish I had the answeer for what is now an Industry wide problem! But I don't! Yes there will be more lay offs! And yes a.a. natives will be among them! But it still doesn't change the fact that up until now the ex-TWA employees have been in the forfront of those going out the door! We have, up tell now, insulated most native a.a.ers from what would have been, the most hurenduse of times for the average American Airlines employee! Numbers don't lie!!! On April 10th. of 2001, there were approx. 22,000 TWA employees! Today, I believe I'de be streaching it if I said there are maybe 4,000!!! In a year, I think that number will be more like 1,000! Granted not all were layed off, but my main point is from here on in it'll be your turn!

 

[MCI transplant]

MCI transplant, first I have to disagree with you that former TWA are the only ones getting laid off. At my city they are laying off agents, ramp, and management (former TWA and origional AA , we have no AA mtce here). There are also 450 pilots getting laid off with more to come. At some of the other line stations there will be no flight reduction but they are still cutting heads and at some of these cities its all origional AA employees. At the big meeting, we were told that they don't want to ask for more concessions (but I think they will eventually) they said that they just want to cut the budgets through layoffs. I don't see how were going to make it because during the holidays our load factors are in the 90s. I agree that things are bad, there is a rumor on another website about Delta farming out heavy maintanece of their MD-88 and MD-90 and 757s. I see in sabre that MCI does our 767-200's. I also read that the government is looking for some heavy maintanence work on the militaries 767 that was going to go to boeing. Is this being looked at by the joint committee?

[post="198347"][/post]​

<_< aafsc-----I've also heard of the 767 work. Has the joint comiitee looked inti it! I have no idea! But the feeling here at MCI is that if such a contract were signed, it would be worked at either TUL, or AFW, not here! I realize this sounds like we are being paranoid, but our local management doesn't exactly inspire us to think otherwise! :down:

 

[aafsc]

<_< aafsc-----I've also heard of the 767 work. Has the joint comiitee looked inti it! I have no idea! But the feeling here at MCI is that if such a contract were signed, it would be worked at either TUL, or AFW, not here! I realize this sounds like we are being paranoid, but our local management doesn't exactly inspire us to think otherwise! :down:

[post="198371"][/post]​

MCI transplant, I think that AFW's hangars can only hold 4 planes at one time (I'll have to call my friend out there to see if this is true) usually sabre shows 2 777's and 2 767 300's there at the same time. But I don't know if TUL is maxed out (don't really know anyone there). As far as TWA people bearing the brunt of the layoffs, you're correct. Looking at Aug seniority list in jetnet there were about 1800 TW mechanics still working, 1100 ramp. about 300 stores. and 250 plant mtce. small number of dispatchers, etc. for
about 3,300 TWU represented people who were TWA. Add about 600 pilots (plus the 400 that retired) and about 900 agents around the sytem, plus management, specialist, and clerical support and I estimate 6,000 total former TW still working, of course that will change with the upcoming layoffs. 6,000 is a significant drop from 20,000 but some of those people retired. I know you are upset about the seniority situation but AA purchased the TW assets at a liquidation. AA's unions had a legal obligation, as proven in court with the pilots suit, to protect the interest of their members from the first to the last. TW people were not members of the AA unions at the time. The TWU and IAM are both members of the AFL_CIO and that organizations charter calls for arbitration. Legally, it should have been a pure staple, since seniority was waved in BK. But the arbitrator has made his ruling and everyone has to live with it. If the TW people had been able to keep their full seniority everywhere they would have moved to the top of the list because over the years they were a shrinking money losing carrier while AA was a growing profitable carrier. In effect the AA people would have been stapled below the TW people thus ensuring the AA people would be a cushion to the TW people thus transferring TW failure from TW employees to AA employees. If AA shut down AFW and dehubbed or downsized DFW those employees would not have been able to go to MCI and STL. Debating the seniority issue at this point is really worthless because between UA, US, DL, and CO the compensation in this industry is going to fall rapidly here pretty soon and when it does I think a lot of people will leave.

 

[AAmech]

AFW has 7 WB hanger bays. Right now TUL has one open WB hanger bay and two NB bays used for "drop in" work. Tul also has 737 lines doing MD80 LT and HVY "C" checks which could be moved to MCI should TUL get the Military 737 work.
TUL won't get the 767 work as they've never worked that plane before.

 

[aafsc]

AFW has 7 WB hanger bays. Right now TUL has one open WB hanger bay and two NB bays used for "drop in" work. Tul also has 737 lines doing MD80 LT and HVY "C" checks which could be moved to MCI should TUL get the Military 737 work.
TUL won't get the 767 work as they've never worked that plane before.

[post="198457"][/post]​

Thanks for the info.

 

[MCI transplant]

:huh: Thanks for the positive attitude people! Maybe there's hope for us yet! aafsc---- just for the record! WE (TWA) never expected 100% of our Senority! But we still feel something more than " staple," would have been fair! The only reason we got what we did was because we had to fight for it in mediation! Now it seems a.a. is methodicaly getting reed of that, and us! As for our last Bankrupcy, I, and many of my fellow ex's, feel we were purposly taken into bankrupcy to get reed of Uncle Carl, and his company "Karabu", plus our scope clauses in our contracts! Although at this point, it's all a mute issue anyway! The question now is, do you really feel the drop in the numbers of exTWA employees was due to just "BAD LUCK!!" And yes, some did quit, and, or retire!!! Let's just hope this economy turns arround soon! Even so, Arpy will want more!!! Hold on people! I'm afraid it's going to one hell of a ride!!!! Stand by aa! I hear the next round of layffs (FEB) will be line stations!!!! :down:

 

[aafsc]

:huh: Thanks for the positive attitude people! Maybe there's hope for us yet! aafsc---- just for the record! WE (TWA) never expected 100% of our Senority! But we still feel something more than " staple," would have been fair! The only reason we got what we did was because we had to fight for it in mediation! Now it seems a.a. is methodicaly getting reed of that, and us! As for our last Bankrupcy, I, and many of my fellow ex's, feel we were purposly taken into bankrupcy to get reed of Uncle Carl, and his company "Karabu", plus our scope clauses in our contracts! Although at this point, it's all a mute issue anyway! The question now is, do you really feel the drop in the numbers of exTWA employees was due to just "BAD LUCK!!" And yes, some did quit, and, or retire!!! Let's just hope this economy turns arround soon! Even so, Arpy will want more!!! Hold on people! I'm afraid it's going to one hell of a ride!!!! Stand by aa! I hear the next round of layffs (FEB) will be line stations!!!! :down:

[post="198553"][/post]​

I think the arbitrator tried to come to a decision that effected as few people as posible. TW people kept their seniority in their bases (MCI STL) and AA people were protected in their bases. As far as the TW bankruptcy, I agree that one of the motives was to get rid of the karabu agreement. I read TW's financial statements at the end of 2000. They had a $100,000,000 note due and had about $153,000,000 in cash if I remember correctly. Barring refinancing, they would have paid the note. That would have left them dangerously low on cash. Also, don't forget it was the slow winter months and the IAM contract was amendable. The TWA IAM wanted parity with the other airlines. If they could not get this there would have been a strike which would have killed TW immediately. I have talked to the former TW people I work with and they said if they could not have gotten parity or close to it then "shut it down" they said. The Bk was a way for TW to save cash, get rid of Karabu, and prevent an IAM action until the chapter 11 could be converted to chapter 7. As far as bad luck, I guess you could call it that. Bad luck that STL is not as good of a hub as DFW or ORD. Bad luck that AA had to ground all those aircraft because of industry economics. But there is some good luck here. And that is the retirement package the AA is giving to about 150 MCI mechanics (not much but I'm surprised they offered anything). This will cut the layoffs down to about 250 from what I have read. And good luck in terms that the MCI base is still here. Did you ever think that you would out last all the UA heavy maintanence mechanics (IND OAK gone) and half of the NW mechanics. AS far as the line stations, they will get hit, I already know that and I agree things will get worse before they get better.

 

[MCI transplant]

[post="198565"][/post]​

<_< aafsc-----As I stated before" this is all now a mute issue"! But there is one thing that you have brought up that is ineresting! This thing about fear of a strike by the I.A.M.!!!! That's a new one on me! And I was here at the Overhaul base at the time! I don't know who you were talking to but "Strike" was not an issue! What we did have in a lot of our "Concessionary" contracts was "Snapback" clauses, which would automatically snapback to preconcesionary levels at end of contract! I was really floored whan I reallized this last giveaway had no such clauses!!! Sometime I wonder!!! :down:

 

[aafsc]

<_< aafsc-----As I stated before" this is all now a mute issue"! But there is one thing that you have brought up that is ineresting! This thing about fear of a strike by the I.A.M.!!!! That's a new one on me! And I was here at the Overhaul base at the time! I don't know who you were talking to but "Strike" was not an issue! What we did have in a lot of our "Concessionary" contracts was "Snapback" clauses, which would automatically snapback to preconcesionary levels at end of contract! I was really floored whan I reallized this last giveaway had no such clauses!!! Sometime I wonder!!! :down:

[post="198676"][/post]​

Although a strike was not immenent, the IAM had already made their demands known. I got this information from another website which is frequented by TWA supporters. One person who appears to have been a pilot union official at TW explained the upcoming challenges facing TW in 2000/2001. One of those challenges was the IAM contact. After reading this, I asked a crew chief who was former TW and he agreed with what I had read; and that was if they could not get parity then shut it down.

 

[MCI transplant]

Although a strike was not immenent, the IAM had already made their demands known. I got this information from another website which is frequented by TWA supporters. One person who appears to have been a pilot union official at TW explained the upcoming challenges facing TW in 2000/2001. One of those challenges was the IAM contact. After reading this, I asked a crew chief who was former TW and he agreed with what I had read; and that was if they could not get parity then shut it down.

[post="198714"][/post]​

<_< aafsc----- A little comment on Union politics! MCI was the center of the IAM's political base at the time.The way the Base voted, was the way the contract went! Same as TUL is today with the TWU! And at no time was "Strike" even mentioned!!!The Contract was a problem, we have been behind the 8 ball (rest of the industry) for years! Our retirement had been frozen since 1988! And then reduced! But we all know to keep TWA flying, we had to moderate any demands! Uncle Carl was our biggest problem! He was skimming off estamated $200, mill. @ year in profits with his ticket ripoff! If it wasn't for him, TWA would have shown a nice profit, and who knows? We might not be having this converastion today!!! But your either totally missing my point, or ignoring it! We had a "SNAP-BACK CLAUSE" which would have at least taken us back to a pre-concetional point!!!None was taken with the TWU's contract, and it appears none will be in the future! What is past is history!