Ual And Usair

[aafsc]

<_< aafsc----- A little comment on Union politics! MCI was the center of the IAM's political base at the time.The way the Base voted, was the way the contract went! Same as TUL is today with the TWU! And at no time was "Strike" even mentioned!!!The Contract was a problem, we have been behind the 8 ball (rest of the industry) for years! Our retirement had been frozen since 1988! And then reduced! But we all know to keep TWA flying, we had to moderate any demands! Uncle Carl was our biggest problem! He was skimming off estamated $200, mill. @ year in profits with his ticket ripoff! If it wasn't for him, TWA would have shown a nice profit, and who knows? We might not be having this converastion today!!! But your either totally missing my point, or ignoring it! We had a "SNAP-BACK CLAUSE" which would have at least taken us back to a pre-concetional point!!!None was taken with the TWU's contract, and it appears none will be in the future! What is past is history!

[post="198748"][/post]​

I understand and agree with you about the snapback clause. Unfortunately, we don't have it in this contract and when the concessions train comes again; hopefully, I can implement my escape plan. Regarding pensions, I think that the unions should think proactively. In other words freeze it (like TWA) but transfer the cash into individual accounts for the employees. I know that this is what the republicans want and I prefer the traditional pension plan (fixed payments for life after retirement); but I'd rather have the cash rather than loose it in a termination (like UA and US). I can't stand the thought of losing 15 years of deferred compensation; which this basically is. By the way, the former TWA person I told you about worked on the ramp in New York.

 

[MCI transplant]

I understand and agree with you about the snapback clause. Unfortunately, we don't have it in this contract and when the concessions train comes again; hopefully, I can implement my escape plan. Regarding pensions, I think that the unions should think proactively. In other words freeze it (like TWA) but transfer the cash into individual accounts for the employees. I know that this is what the republicans want and I prefer the traditional pension plan (fixed payments for life after retirement); but I'd rather have the cash rather than loose it in a termination (like UA and US). I can't stand the thought of losing 15 years of deferred compensation; which this basically is. By the way, the former TWA person I told you about worked on the ramp in New York.

[post="198798"][/post]​

:down: aafsc----- Believe me!!! From someone who has been there!!! Freeze-ing ones retirement is not a good thing!!! Why do you think TWA has such a high senority list???? Because we can't afford to retire!!! How come? Because we had our retirement frozen, and reduced for 10+ years! A tipical amount would be $650, from TWA, $150, from IAM, $250 from A.A.@ month, before taxs!!!Plus S/S, if your old enough!! Could you live on that???? That's what a lot of ex-TWAers are faceing after a min. of 20 years!!! :down:

 

[aafsc]

:down: aafsc----- Believe me!!! From someone who has been there!!! Freeze-ing ones retirement is not a good thing!!! Why do you think TWA has such a high senority list???? Because we can't afford to retire!!! How come? Because we had our retirement frozen, and reduced for 10+ years! A tipical amount would be $650, from TWA, $150, from IAM, $250 from A.A.@ month, before taxs!!!Plus S/S, if your old enough!! Could you live on that???? That's what a lot of ex-TWAers are faceing after a min. of 20 years!!! :down:

[post="198823"][/post]​

I know what you mean. My father was an EAL lead mechanic for 25 years (IAM and went on strike) and he's only getting $350 per month pension (before taxes). Plus he lost his EAL retiree medical. My thoughts here was to give us what we accrued in cash put into a 401k type plan then from that point forward AA makes contributions. I know what you are saying I agree and you are correct. But my concern is if they go the way of US and UA that under the PBGC formula me with my 15 years I will get nothing, whereas the people in retirement and those relatively close will make out ok. AS stated earlier, I prefer the tradtional plan. I just hope AA can continue to fund it long term. I had only 3.5 years at EAL so I wasn't even vested. Do you think it would have been better if when they froze your TWA retirement they gave you a lump sum (the amount you accrued) then you put it into a personal retirement account and let it draw interest plus TWA could have contributed a certain %?

 

[MCI transplant]

I know what you mean. My father was an EAL lead mechanic for 25 years (IAM and went on strike) and he's only getting $350 per month pension (before taxes). Plus he lost his EAL retiree medical. My thoughts here was to give us what we accrued in cash put into a 401k type plan then from that point forward AA makes contributions. I know what you are saying I agree and you are correct. But my concern is if they go the way of US and UA that under the PBGC formula me with my 15 years I will get nothing, whereas the people in retirement and those relatively close will make out ok. AS stated earlier, I prefer the tradtional plan. I just hope AA can continue to fund it long term. I had only 3.5 years at EAL so I wasn't even vested. Do you think it would have been better if when they froze your TWA retirement they gave you a lump sum (the amount you accrued) then you put it into a personal retirement account and let it draw interest plus TWA could have contributed a certain %?

[post="198828"][/post]​

<_< aafsc-------Sorry! I disagree! I feel your retirement is one of your most important bennifites! I feel it should be the last thing tampered with! I feel there should be a Union pention fund set up, @IAM, or Teamsters, and moneies paid by the company directly into it! If ever there was a "Strike" issue, this should be it! I know some of our younger employees may disagree! But this is a big part of one's compensation! And once gone, there's no second chance to start over! As for TWA? We did what we did! A lot of people feel we should have let it go under the first time! There is a time to say enough is enough, cut one's loses, and get on with your life! The trick is, deciding when that time is!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< This thing with the P.B.C.G. and the bankrupcy courts! One doesn't have to be the sharpest knife in the drawer to see whats going on! Simply said, the P.B.C.G. shouldn't have to asume the pensions until that company go'es Chap.7!!! If U, and, or UAL get away with this, there will be a stampede into the Courts! And not only the Airlines! The P.B.C.G. sees this and is fighting, with the Unions to prevent U, or UAL from setting a presedant ! If they fail I look for a.a. to follow suit!!!

 

[aafsc]

<_< This thing with the P.B.C.G. and the bankrupcy courts! One doesn't have to be the sharpest knife in the drawer to see whats going on! Simply said, the P.B.C.G. shouldn't have to asume the pensions until that company go'es Chap.7!!! If U, and, or UAL get away with this, there will be a stampede into the Courts! And not only the Airlines! The P.B.C.G. sees this and is fighting, with the Unions to prevent U, or UAL from setting a presedant ! If they fail I look for a.a. to follow suit!!!

[post="198922"][/post]​

I agree, I'm just trying to think two steps ahead; obviously the TWU (The Worthless Union) is incapable of that.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

I agree, I'm just trying to think two steps ahead; obviously the TWU (The Worthless Union) is incapable of that.

[post="198924"][/post]​

The TWU is quite capable of thinking ahead. They have indeed thought ahead, and have determined that we will still be paying TWU dues into their coffers even though they have given away our retirement.

Layoffs and/or pay cuts will reduce dues collection. Benefits giveaways or cuts will have no effect on dues collections. Which do you think is more attractive to them?

Look for more, much more benefits giveaways and cuts.

It's all about money, folks.

 

[MCI transplant]

The TWU is quite capable of thinking ahead. They have indeed thought ahead, and have determined that we will still be paying TWU dues into their coffers even though they have given away our retirement.

Layoffs and/or pay cuts will reduce dues collection. Benefits giveaways or cuts will have no effect on dues collections. Which do you think is more attractive to them?

Look for more, much more benefits giveaways and cuts.

It's all about money, folks.

[post="198931"][/post]​

:down: People,people, people! The Company is playing you like a brass band, and all you can do is revert to Union bashing!!!Wow is me!!! Wow is me!!! :angry:

 

[limit]

:down: People,people, people! The Company is playing you like a brass band, and all you can do is revert to Union bashing!!!Wow is me!!! Wow is me!!! :angry:

[post="199095"][/post]​

Actually, they are both doing it.

 

[goingboeing]

:down: People,people, people! The Company is playing you like a brass band, and all you can do is revert to Union bashing!!!Wow is me!!! Wow is me!!! :angry:

[post="199095"][/post]​

I think you meant to say "Woe is me".

AA management is playing us like a drum because they have absolutely no respect for their employees.

SWA puts their employees at the base of the pyramid and AA puts their shareholders at the base of the pymarid.This is a MAJOR difference in attitudes between the 2 Companies and which one is making money?[hasn't lost money for years, if ever.]

Any moron in a service related business should understand that your employees make your business.[3 simple steps]
1 Happy employees make happy customers
2 Happy customers bring money[profits] and repeat business to the company.
3 The shareholders make money because the customers have brought revenue to the company.

AA management has it completely 180 out of sync of how it works.
I can take money from shareholders all day long but if I don't deliever a quality product due to unhappy employees then there are no profits for anyone.
The shareholders DO NOT support the company, the employees support the shareholders.SWA[LUV] understands this and AA does not.

 

[local 12 proud]

"If the employees come first, then they're happy," Herb Kelleher, Southwest Airlines co-founder is quoted as saying. "A motivated employee treats the customer well. The customer is happy so they keep coming back, which pleases the shareholders. It's not one of the enduring Green mysteries of all time, it is just the way it works."

 

[Oneflyer]

AA management is playing us like a drum because they have absolutely no respect for their employees.

This is such utter mindless drivel, the grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

If Arpey tomorrow proposed to treat AA employees like SW does their own, you guys would go crazy. Take away your pensions and start the lay-offs and we're well on our way to being southwest.

 

[aafsc]

This is such utter mindless drivel, the grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

If Arpey tomorrow proposed to treat AA employees like SW does their own, you guys would go crazy. Take away your pensions and start the lay-offs and we're well on our way to being southwest.

[post="199357"][/post]​

Oneflyer, Southwest does have "pensions" but it is the form of a 401k. Southwest can not terminate an employees' 401k (it is the employees personal reitrement account) but can refuse to make further contributions. As for layoffs, to my knowledge, Southwest has never had layoffs as where AA has had thousands (with many more to come). As for rate of pay my counterpart at Southwest, one with the same seniority as me makes substantially more.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Actually, Southwest has a very balanced approach that addresses the needs of stockholder, employees, and customers. All three have to be met.

While you can argue that AA (or any of the legacy airlines) has not met the needs of any of those constituencies for years, you must recognize that AA and the rest of the legacy industry has an unsustainable business plan in light of the changes in the industry. Given that the legacy carriers are all fighting for their survival, it's a little ridiculous to think that there won't be an impact on each of the three groups until the company turns itself around.

We'll have to see whether AA dumps the pension plan but I'm doubting no other legacy carrier will based on their current positions. The impact is horrific as is being seen at UA and US. There comes a point where saving a couple hundred million bucks a year now is enough to sink the company in a couple years. There is also a big difference between UA and US - both are in bankruptcy and are fighting for their survival in an industry where bankruptcy is tantamount to a death sentence; the other legacies all have considerably more control over their situation than does UA and US. There is no assurance that either one will emerge from bankruptcy - let alone be a viable carrier in a couple years. AA financially has a good shot at remaining a viable competitor; kill off the pension plan and all bets are off.

 

[mistified]

I think that even if all business models end up being the same (i.e cost), that employee expectations can still kill the "goose".