Unions. Food for thought.....

[eolesen]

Name me one other industry where prices have smaller percentage increase in the last 20 years. Food, tires, taxes, auto repair, etc., etc. ?

How about home improvement, fast food, video rental? The price for a box of nails isn't remarkably higher from 1991. Neither is the cost of a cheeseburger at McDonalds or Wendy's. And I'm paying the same at Redbox as I did for Blockbuster in 1991. Maybe even less.

Even new build housing looks like it is back to where prices were 20 years ago, which says that the construction industry's costs are probably flat.

Some things got much cheaper, like DVDs, cell phones, digital cameras, computers, personal calculators.... Just about everything with a plug or a battery on it is cheaper now than it was 20 years ago. Some of that is due to volume, but more of it is due to productivity or technology increases.


Since you were around automotive, how much of the real diagnostic work in an auto repair shop is done in two minutes with an OBD2 connector, versus a technician having to run down a mental checklist or completely inspect the vehicle? Bob's posted a couple times about how auto mechanic wages have gone up, but how many are required today versus 20 years ago, adjusted for sales? With all the centralization that's gone on, it's not a given that every dealership has a service department in every location. That says to me that not only is reliability of the product up, but technology has made it easier to fix.

 

[strikeforce]

People will always manage to have discretionary spending. It just requires living inside their means, which is still a concept far too many Americans didn't get until the housing bubble collapsed.

And greed is hardly unique to corporate types. How many people do you know who before 2005 took money out of their house or borrowed against their 401K just to go buy a jet ski or motorhome, or take some outrageous cruise?... I'll bet some of them were also eating out at Chili's or some other place at least once or twice a week.

you're right people will always have discretionary spending using borrowed money. It's too easy! What's the percentage of workers that live within their means? I'll bet it's less than 10%, and that's at AA alone.
So, what's the solution here...continue accepting more concessions because management is reckless and can't live within it's means, and therefore can't provide me wage restoration or even a raise...all the while providing the executives lavish bonuses all the way down to my immediate supervisors? NO FRICKIN WAY! What makes them so special?

 

[eolesen]

Well, since you brought it up, what makes you so special compared to the majority of people in the US who aren't in a union and aren't in management? That's the middle class, by the way.... they do still exist despite rumors to the contrary...

 

[Hopeful]

Well, since you brought it up, what makes you so special compared to the majority of people in the US who aren't in a union and aren't in management? That's the middle class, by the way.... they do still exist despite rumors to the contrary...

It has nothing to do with anyone being "special." But if you look at what has occurred since the early 80's you will see that corporate America, with the help of the government, has been declaring war on UNIONS......not just "workers."
Pro management types in both public and private sector have teamed together to break unions.
As we have recently seen with the anti unionist Gov. Walker of Wisconsin and all the debate that has surrounded it, unions have been blamed for everything from America being uncompetitive to being the cause of State and Governement deficits.

I have read and seen many an anti-unionist private and public and media personality saying that union workers have too many benefits and make more money compared to their peers in the private sector.
So what does that tell you, Eric?
It tells me that unions must be destroyed to bring wages down. Rather than elevate every working American to a better standard of living, we are being forced downward.
Unions have raised alot of standards of living, both union members and non.

Once unions are no longer a viable threat, corporations will then, with the help of the government, launch full blown campaigns to dismantle any work place and environmental regulation designed to protect workers. As it is now, companys say they outsource and off shore their plants because of NO regulations in mexico, india, and China....they simply cannot afford to do business in the US.

The conservative ideology and corporate philosophy is to drag down the standard of living of EVERY working American. Thats what NAFTA was all about, as well as CAFTA.

 

[strikeforce]

Well, since you brought it up, what makes you so special compared to the majority of people in the US who aren't in a union and aren't in management? That's the middle class, by the way.... they do still exist despite rumors to the contrary...

I know what makes me special compared to management at AA, since you asked. APA, AFPA, and TWU took the brunt of the concessions in 2003. While I lost 1 week of vacation per year, 17% of wages, sick time at half pay, reduced holidays at reduced pay, and other various out of pocket increases like medical, management kept their wages and benefits. Now, they'll enjoy bonuses. That's why I'm a special case. Shared sacrifice was just another way of saying concessions shared by APA, AFPA, and TWU.

 

[Bob Owens]

People will always manage to have discretionary spending. It just requires living inside their means, which is still a concept far too many Americans didn't get until the housing bubble collapsed.

And greed is hardly unique to corporate types. How many people do you know who before 2005 took money out of their house or borrowed against their 401K just to go buy a jet ski or motorhome, or take some outrageous cruise?... I'll bet some of them were also eating out at Chili's or some other place at least once or twice a week.

How is it "greed" if you take your own money and spend it foolishly?

Greed is when you take in $22 billion dollars and give yourselves bonuses then tell the people who helped you bring in that $22 billion that there's nothing for them.

 

[TWU informer]

Greed is when you take in $22 billion dollars and give yourselves bonuses then tell the people who helped you bring in that $22 billion that there's nothing for them.

That is indeed greed, but should be classified as criminal instead of greed.

Which will come first? A Ratified Labor Agreement or $5.00 per gallon at the fuel pump?

 

[Bob Owens]

How about home improvement, fast food, video rental? The price for a box of nails isn't remarkably higher from 1991. Neither is the cost of a cheeseburger at McDonalds or Wendy's. And I'm paying the same at Redbox as I did for Blockbuster in 1991. Maybe even less.

Even new build housing looks like it is back to where prices were 20 years ago, which says that the construction industry's costs are probably flat.

Some things got much cheaper, like DVDs, cell phones, digital cameras, computers, personal calculators.... Just about everything with a plug or a battery on it is cheaper now than it was 20 years ago. Some of that is due to volume, but more of it is due to productivity or technology increases.


Since you were around automotive, how much of the real diagnostic work in an auto repair shop is done in two minutes with an OBD2 connector, versus a technician having to run down a mental checklist or completely inspect the vehicle? Bob's posted a couple times about how auto mechanic wages have gone up, but how many are required today versus 20 years ago, adjusted for sales? With all the centralization that's gone on, it's not a given that every dealership has a service department in every location. That says to me that not only is reliability of the product up, but technology has made it easier to fix.

The fact is that most of what you cited as getting cheaper is stuff thats not considered staples. What about the stuff we have to get and thats not discretionary? things like food, energy, Insurance, healthcare and taxes? The stuff that consumes nearly all if not more than all of most peoples incomes.

As corporations and the rich pay less and less we have to pay more in taxes. As oil companies gouge the American public they also drive up food costs.

This nation still produces enough wealth to provide all its citizens an enjoyable life but those all the top just insust on taking more than they will ever need.

Do people make silly choices? Yes. But the biggest mistakes that working people, and especially unions make, is tolerating the excess of the top tiers of our society. So they cash in their 401K or borrow against their homes for things that their wages should, but no longer do, cover. I suppose you feel that only the rich should have any enjoyment in life and everyone else should just feel lucky to be able to serve them.

 

[strikeforce]

That is indeed greed, but should be classified as criminal instead of greed.

Which will come first? A Ratified Labor Agreement or $5.00 per gallon at the fuel pump?

$5 a gal.

Greed is........
1. Executives STEALING from workers (union and non-union).
2. Bankers STEALING from taxpayers, after gouging them first.
3. Oil companies and Wall Street manipulating the oil markets.
4. Corporations manufacturing overseas and selling their products here.
5. Politicians!

I don't see middle class, union, or the poor in any of those definitions. Surprised?

 

[odie01]

$5 a gal.

Greed is........
1. Executives STEALING from workers (union and non-union).
2. Bankers STEALING from taxpayers, after gouging them first.
3. Oil companies and Wall Street manipulating the oil markets.
4. Corporations manufacturing overseas and selling their products here.
5. Politicians!

I don't see middle class, union, or the poor in any of those definitions. Surprised?

I agree, but number one should be...

1. TWU International leadership stealing from their own members, by making six figure saleries, and not taking the same benifit and pay cuts as the membership.

GO AMP!

 

[upsilon]

I'm not looking for sympathy from the flying public because I know that they don't care. But, they should care because their lives are at risk when inexperienced helpers perform maintenance on airplanes. Just ask the passengers on the SWA flight.

Maintenance (experienced or inexperienced/in-house or MRO) should not be blamed for the peeling skin on the SWA 737-300. Boeing has accepted responsibility for this situation, as reported in the WSJ:

"Boeing publicly acknowledged technical missteps. Boeing said it knew that certain older versions of its 737 aircraft could face cracking problems, but had thought the risks wouldn't emerge until much later in a plane's life. The company had advised airlines that certain older 737s could make 60,000 flights before they needed to undergo detailed inspections of the relevant skin sections."

 

[Bob Owens]

That is indeed greed, but should be classified as criminal instead of greed.

Which will come first? A Ratified Labor Agreement or $5.00 per gallon at the fuel pump?

When you look at what happened to the guys at UAL , that was something that pretty much everyone should agree was a crime as well. UAL workers, as a condition of employment had to buy UAL stock, then after hundreds of millions in wages had been converted into stock that they could not sell they turn around and declare bankruptcy, making the stock worthless, then the institutions that took their money and sold the stock to them get new stock issued to them for the debt they were holding!

 

[xUT]

When you look at what happened to the guys at UAL , that was something that pretty much everyone should agree was a crime as well. UAL workers, as a condition of employment had to buy UAL stock, then after hundreds of millions in wages had been converted into stock that they could not sell they turn around and declare bankruptcy, making the stock worthless, then the institutions that took their money and sold the stock to them get new stock issued to them for the debt they were holding!

That is a fact! And when we asked why the executive officers did not loose their stock and pensions, they stated that they had a contract, all the while abrogating ours. Their 'contracts' are untouchable while ours we worthless paper. And Unions are the criminals, go figure... :wacko:

 

[paul1]

Dr. Bob aka the spin doctor the people got screwed over big time at ual and I don't see them running for the exits years later

 

[xUT]

Dr. Bob aka the spin doctor the people got screwed over big time at ual and I don't see them running for the exits years later

So what is your point?
UAL people did get screwed over and 'many' people left after their retirement was sent to the PBGC.
Some people just quit and opened their own business. Even in a not so solid economy, people are looking for other opportunities to secure their future as the future of airline work is a diminishing return on investment.
Those that tend to stay, love their jobs working on/in/around airplanes. The 'allure' is still a factor in their decisions. Sadly, as mergers occur, the retirement benefits are not what they once were. The flight benefits are nearly impossible to use and with UAL adopting much of CAL boarding priorities, I don't see the point.