Unions. Food for thought.....

[Deleted member 17588]

My main point is that everyone must adapt or die.

What must I adapt to? Living in poverty? Living in constant fear that if I get laid off I won't be able to find another job even though I have a college degree? Losing my home? Dealing with declining health because I don't have health care or medications?

I'd rather fight to change the status quo and make things better. I'm not willing to throw in the towel and adapt to the low expectation of human existence you seem to suggest.

 

[strikeforce]

Corporate greed is worse than unions. For example, yesterday Sbarro's (that nice pizza chain in just about every mall in the country) filed bankruptcy because the company could not afford the debt foisted upon it by a private leveraged buyout a few years ago. The product isn't the problem.

How about Blockbuster? The video chain also declared bankruptcy and will probably be liquidated (maybe even Carl Icahn, remember him?). Blockbuster had a great product but ignored those little Red Boxes that started popping up everywhere renting movies for a buck. And the internet movie downloads too.

We could go on and on with examples on both side (both management and labor).

My main point is that everyone must adapt or die.

The old airline business models don't work anymore. Neither does union grandstanding. How many of you guys would've chosen Southwest as your employer before 9/11 ?? Very few I'll bet because WN's business model was scorned for various reasons.

Go ahead and attack me. Won't change a thing. You made your choice. Now live with it or do something else.

I will buy the product that is the best value for my family. Same as you.

you're right, corporate greed has destroyed more companies than unions. Private equity groups and wall street, in general, attack companies vulnerable under heavy debt obligations. However, these debts are not labor related, but mortgaged assets in order to change the product your family values like power ports, in-flight entertainment systems, and new seats. AA debt swelled to 20B several years ago not because of labor costs but asset purchases, and then re-mortgaged for asset upgrades. On top of that, AA squandered 1.6B from employee concessions on maintenance issues related to corporate decisions not to perform routine maintenance. These decisions were made by management not the unions. However, today unions are the villans because it's easy for the media to portray them as the problem. All I can say is Americans can continue to value cheap lead based products made in China, and talk to hard to understand customer service reps in India, and value flying on cheap fares, but you get what you pay for. Unions have represented skilled trades that provide QUALITY products and service...like aircraft mechanics. But if we continue down this beaten path....you and your family can value skilled trade from China, India, and Central & South America the next time you fly. Hope you make it!

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Both prior posts resort to personally attacking my opinion and ominous threats rather than suggesting positive action. Amusing and revealing.

For the record, I was raised in a union family and continue to support union work. But only to a point. If the economics don't work then I'm gone.

For years I spent well over six figures with USAirways until their product lost value and cost me my customers. I switched and still have not heard one inquiry from that airline about why I left.

Darwinism. Adapt or die. Google it. And figure out a better way for your own sake.

Threatening to strike is not going to achieve the results you expect like the old days. Your union leaders are reacting rather than leading.

As Malcom X (personified by Denzel Washington in the movie) once said:

"Ya been bamboozled!"

 

[strikeforce]

Both prior posts resort to personally attacking my opinion and ominous threats rather than suggesting positive action. Amusing and revealing.

For the record, I was raised in a union family and continue to support union work. But only to a point. If the economics don't work then I'm gone.

For years I spent well over six figures with USAirways until their product lost value and cost me my customers. I switched and still have not heard one inquiry from that airline about why I left.

Darwinism. Adapt or die. Google it. And figure out a better way for your own sake.

Threatening to strike is not going to achieve the results you expect like the old days. Your union leaders are reacting rather than leading.

As Malcom X (personified by Denzel Washington in the movie) once said:

"Ya been bamboozled!"

I wasn't attacking you personally because I don't know what you do or who you are. I was merely pointing out that most Americans portray labor as lazy and overpaid because they form opinions about these workers based on information from corporate owned media outlets. The unions can't defend themselves because THEY don't have the resources to counter these slanderous opinions about their membership. Strikes and job actions are labor's only defense against corporate greed, especially when the employer plays games and uses underhanded tactics to rip apart a contract BOTH parties agreed to. Just like I presume you had a contract with USAIR....how would you feel if USAIR unilaterally places stipulations and hardships to that contract? This our fight with AA. The trust between employee and employer has been lost because of management's greed by stealing from it's own. This relationship will NEVER heal. It would be no different than you and me stealing from our children. Our fight with AA is about RESTORING hard earned money and benefits BOTH parties agreed to in 2001, and then underhandedly STOLEN from us in 2003, by shotgun approach. Most Americans don't know what happened in 2003, but AA came in and basically said "give me your money and benefits or I will steal them in BK". Now, you tell me how labor is supposed to respond to those demands? This is something most Americans fail to recognize, understand or even know because the media won't give those details. Now, fast forward 8 years and the company STILL fails to recognize labors sacrifice, but rewards themselves with bonuses after losing hundreds of millions, and again is playing games by stalling in negotiations.....and what do YOU expect labor to do? Go ahead and blame the unions!

 

[eolesen]

You're right: most American's don't know what happened to you in 2003.

And you don't know what happened to them...

Millions of workers in the US have seen paycuts and/or loss of benefits, gone thru layoffs, downsizings, divorces, foreclosures, you name it...

I know, they should have had a union backing them up. Oh, wait, the same stuff happened to lots of good union folks, too.

It's been a crappy ride for most of the US during the last couple years, so I really don't think that getting the word out about what happened to you in 2003 is really going to garner a whole lot of support.

You might get a little empathy, but that's about it.

Besides, if you start to make the case on why airline workers need raises, it might backfire a bit... The 70% of Americans who aren't in a union and aren't fat cat executives know damn well that if you get a raise, the price of airfare will go up even more than it has for fuel. And flying home to see family will probably be just one more thing they'll have to cut back on. People have already cut back on things like skiing and cruises.

 

[AV1]

Besides, if you start to make the case on why airline workers need raises, it might backfire a bit... The 70% of Americans who aren't in a union and aren't fat cat executives know damn well that if you get a raise, the price of airfare will go up even more than it has for fuel. And flying home to see family will probably be just one more thing they'll have to cut back on. People have already cut back on things like skiing and cruises.

How much do you pay for a car these days compared to twenty years ago? Can you even buy a new car for under $20,000. I heard a manager of a auto dealer talk about the new Hyundai that is coming out at a range of $50,000 to $60,000 to a group of people today. Hyundai? You know the most amusing part, nobody flinched. How much does it cost to have your car at the dealer for repairs, is it now around $100 an hour? You know what, this is pretty much a basic necessity to have your auto working. When is the last time I heard the news media target both issues and report it. NEVER. Once the airline raises tickets $5, it seems like it makes the front page. Airline workers have to actually live too, believe it or not. So when inflation drives up prices, you know what, we might need a raise. When the cost of fuel goes up, it is actually the airlines fault according to just about every news outlet for raising prices to cover the oil speculators ,who drive the price up, for no apparent reason other than making money in the market, because they can. Airline prices might have gone up recently, not to say they won't go back down when some airfare war starts again. Airline prices have pretty much stayed flat for the last 20 years and I can almost guarantee that any employee raise that might happen will not raise ticket prices, the media and everyone else will make sure of that. BTW, I cant possibly afford that coast to coast flight for around $200, I am going down to check out my new Hyundai.

 

[eolesen]

Dunno. I just went to Cars.com, put in my zip code, and found a half dozen 2011 models of the Jeep I'm currently driving for below $15K.

http://www.cars.com/for-sale/new/jeep/patriot/_/N-ma8Zfg5ZgsmZm5d?mkId=20021&mdId=21766&rd=40&zc=60601&PMmt=1-1-0&stkTypId=28880&rpp=50&feedSegId=28705&searchSource=SORT&crSrtFlds=stkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId&pgId=2102&sf1Nm=price&sf1Dir=ASC&sf2Nm=location&sf2Dir=ASC
If you're looking for basic transportation, new cars are definitely out there.

 

[AV1]

Dunno. I just went to Cars.com, put in my zip code, and found a half dozen 2011 models of the Jeep I'm currently driving for below $15K.

http://www.cars.com/for-sale/new/jeep/patriot/_/N-ma8Zfg5ZgsmZm5d?mkId=20021&mdId=21766&rd=40&zc=60601&PMmt=1-1-0&stkTypId=28880&rpp=50&feedSegId=28705&searchSource=SORT&crSrtFlds=stkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId&pgId=2102&sf1Nm=price&sf1Dir=ASC&sf2Nm=location&sf2Dir=ASC
If you're looking for basic transportation, new cars are definitely out there.

BTW, I used to be employed by dealerships in working with their computer systems/financing programs. Just because that car is listed on cars.com doesn't always mean they have it in stock, guarantee some aren't, just sold it but we do have these other models. I think I made my point about ticket pricing with regard to other industries. Name me one other industry where prices have smaller percentage increase in the last 20 years. Food, tires, taxes, auto repair, etc., etc. ?

 

[strikeforce]

You're right: most American's don't know what happened to you in 2003.

And you don't know what happened to them...

Millions of workers in the US have seen paycuts and/or loss of benefits, gone thru layoffs, downsizings, divorces, foreclosures, you name it...

I know, they should have had a union backing them up. Oh, wait, the same stuff happened to lots of good union folks, too.

It's been a crappy ride for most of the US during the last couple years, so I really don't think that getting the word out about what happened to you in 2003 is really going to garner a whole lot of support.

You might get a little empathy, but that's about it.

Besides, if you start to make the case on why airline workers need raises, it might backfire a bit... The 70% of Americans who aren't in a union and aren't fat cat executives know damn well that if you get a raise, the price of airfare will go up even more than it has for fuel. And flying home to see family will probably be just one more thing they'll have to cut back on. People have already cut back on things like skiing and cruises.

I'm not looking for sympathy from the flying public because I know that they don't care. But, they should care because their lives are at risk when inexperienced helpers perform maintenance on airplanes. Just ask the passengers on the SWA flight.
I sympathize with millions of ordinary middle class workers (union and non-union) getting raped by politicians, wall street, and corporate barons. I'm not looking for a raise, but want what's mine as part of a CONTRACT that AA agreed to in 2001, that's it. In 2003 AA stole this from me, and I just want to be made whole. It's not called a raise.....it's called ownership through a contract, and AA broke the contract.
The bottom line is unions are getting a bad rap for politicians, executives, bankers, and wall streets fiscal irresponsibilities, schemes, and scams that have put ordinary taxpayers on the hook for their mistakes. Now, these schemers are placing the blame on the workers, and there are people like you that support these schemers.

 

[Hopeful]

The bottom line is unions are getting a bad rap for politicians, executives, bankers, and wall streets fiscal irresponsibilities, schemes, and scams that have put ordinary taxpayers on the hook for their mistakes. Now, these schemers are placing the blame on the workers, and there are people like you that support these schemers.

Don't forget those "fair and balanced" views of FOX BUSINESS NEWS' personalities.

This is a sample of the media bias against unions.....

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201104020005

 

[eolesen]

The bottom line is unions are getting a bad rap for politicians, executives, bankers, and wall streets fiscal irresponsibilities, schemes, and scams that have put ordinary taxpayers on the hook for their mistakes. Now, these schemers are placing the blame on the workers, and there are people like you that support these schemers.

No, the bottom line is that the US no longer has the same economic power it did 20 and 30 years ago.

You can try to argue the horrors of sweatshops (and I totally agree they're abhorrent), but we are so far at the other end of the spectrum that it is ridiculous. When you look at all the overhead costs of running a business (Social Security, unemployment taxes, Medicare, health coverage, retirement, local/state/federal laws), most of which apply regardless if you're a union or non-union shop, and the end result is that the US can't compete with foreign manufacturing. Some people will always pay more for quality and/or "Made in USA", but the simple truth is that most people don't.

When you have a nanny state like what we now have, you wind up failing to compete against places like Taiwan, Russia, Korea, Nigeria, China, Peru, Indonesia, Malaysia, Ukraine, Colombia, India, Sri Lanka, Lithuania, Albania, or any of another 30 or 40 countries with decent manufacturing capabilities...

You can blame the greedy politicians, executives, bankers, etc. for some of it, but they're not the ones clamoring for "Always Low Prices!", nor are they the ones who championed things like NAFTA...

It may sound like a cliche, but for better or worse, the world has changed significantly from the days of the Cold War....

 

[Hopeful]

No, the bottom line is that the US no longer has the same economic power it did 20 and 30 years ago.

....

The bottom line is that the US cannot compete with the $2-3 an hour jobs in India, China, Vietnam, etc.etc.

No matter how much union workers, or any workers for that matter, give in the form of concessions, it will never be enough..Never!

 

[xUT]

No, the bottom line is that the US no longer has the same economic power it did 20 and 30 years ago.

You can try to argue the horrors of sweatshops (and I totally agree they're abhorrent), but we are so far at the other end of the spectrum that it is ridiculous. When you look at all the overhead costs of running a business (Social Security, unemployment taxes, Medicare, health coverage, retirement, local/state/federal laws), most of which apply regardless if you're a union or non-union shop, and the end result is that the US can't compete with foreign manufacturing. Some people will always pay more for quality and/or "Made in USA", but the simple truth is that most people don't.

When you have a nanny state like what we now have, you wind up failing to compete against places like Taiwan, Russia, Korea, Nigeria, China, Peru, Indonesia, Malaysia, Ukraine, Colombia, India, Sri Lanka, Lithuania, Albania, or any of another 30 or 40 countries with decent manufacturing capabilities...

You can blame the greedy politicians, executives, bankers, etc. for some of it, but they're not the ones clamoring for "Always Low Prices!", nor are they the ones who championed things like NAFTA...

It may sound like a cliche, but for better or worse, the world has changed significantly from the days of the Cold War....

Conspicuously left out most of the EU nations that have health care, social programs and pensions.
Also, South Korea has better health care, social programs and pensions than we have.
B)

 

[strikeforce]

No, the bottom line is that the US no longer has the same economic power it did 20 and 30 years ago.

You can try to argue the horrors of sweatshops (and I totally agree they're abhorrent), but we are so far at the other end of the spectrum that it is ridiculous. When you look at all the overhead costs of running a business (Social Security, unemployment taxes, Medicare, health coverage, retirement, local/state/federal laws), most of which apply regardless if you're a union or non-union shop, and the end result is that the US can't compete with foreign manufacturing. Some people will always pay more for quality and/or "Made in USA", but the simple truth is that most people don't.

When you have a nanny state like what we now have, you wind up failing to compete against places like Taiwan, Russia, Korea, Nigeria, China, Peru, Indonesia, Malaysia, Ukraine, Colombia, India, Sri Lanka, Lithuania, Albania, or any of another 30 or 40 countries with decent manufacturing capabilities...

You can blame the greedy politicians, executives, bankers, etc. for some of it, but they're not the ones clamoring for "Always Low Prices!", nor are they the ones who championed things like NAFTA...

It may sound like a cliche, but for better or worse, the world has changed significantly from the days of the Cold War....

what country built up those nations through NAFTA? that's right the good ole USA. Our own politicians sold us out, and in turn get money from the same organizations they screwed.
You're right, most people won't pay for quality, and that's because most don't make enough to pay for quality. Most don't have enough for discretionary spending. just look at this nation's debt problem. credit card use is up, and defaults are up. That tells me that most peope don't have savings accounts or available cash on hand for the simpliest of items. It goes for businesses as well....Look, when companies turn or rely on employee concessions in order to continue operations, that company is done. The business model is broke. Say hello to AA and the airline industry. when a company brings in 22B and loses half a billion, something isn't right. The only answer is bad managers, not bad unions. It's so easy to point the finger at labor for all the woes in this country, but one day labor won't be around to blame.

 

[eolesen]

People will always manage to have discretionary spending. It just requires living inside their means, which is still a concept far too many Americans didn't get until the housing bubble collapsed.

And greed is hardly unique to corporate types. How many people do you know who before 2005 took money out of their house or borrowed against their 401K just to go buy a jet ski or motorhome, or take some outrageous cruise?... I'll bet some of them were also eating out at Chili's or some other place at least once or twice a week.