Us Airways, Attendants Reportedly Near Pact

[seeking the truth]

On aug 6th 2004 in thread entitled Machinist union update, district lodge 142, I asked usa320pilot this question,

Usa320pilot,

If a yes vote from you gaurenteed your furluogh from mainline, in addition, if Mid Atlantic wasn't an option or even if you decided to seek employment with MA, and if hired started as a new hire of the street and your years with USAIRWAYS and your current position now meant nothing, would you still cast the same vote. Just wondering ???


On AUG. 6 2004, This was usa320pilots reponse,

USA320Pilot comments: Yes. Even if an employee is furloughed, they get severance pay, unemployment, COBRA, pass privileges, recall rights, and for some work groups J4J, if they desire. However, if the airline fails or enters bankruptcy, they will likely only obtain unemployment.

Seeking the truth comments: Usa320pilot quit whining, you answered yes to the above question. Don't blame the RC4 because of what your group gave up. You were willing TO GIVE UP YOUR JOB in your above answer thinking you weren't ever going to have to feel the "PAIN" in reality.

Well reality slapped you up aside your head and you've been crying ever since over 4 mens decision. You still have your job don't you, so quit whining already, till their back for more!

best regards
seeking the truth

 

[Baja4U]

Let me say this for the record......it seems to me that a LOT of company(management) people are posting on this board...DON'T believe everything you read. It scares me to think that some AFA members would read the management drivel and actually believe it. STAND STRONG!!!! The RC4 tried to STAND up for their members and did in their region, however, they eventually gave in to outside pressure. STAND STRONG AFA & IAM!

 

[SpinDoc]

Let me say this for the record......it seems to me that a LOT of company(management) people are posting on this board...DON'T believe everything you read. It scares me to think that some AFA members would read the management drivel and actually believe it. STAND STRONG!!!! The RC4 tried to STAND up for their members and did in their region, however, they eventually gave in to outside pressure. STAND STRONG AFA & IAM!

[post="228211"][/post]​

Well then let's pose a question that needs to
be asked.

Q: Who knows what this company actually needs
to survive?

A: The BOD, creditors, and other interested
parties. Henceforth, the COMPANY and CREDITORS
have determined a target for each union to meet
to ensure the survival of the company. So far, only
2 unions have met the target and ratified a
contract and the others are either represented by
people who are living in a quanset hut in the
desert, or they are failing their membership by
not negotiating to meet their target.

Don't believe the union hype and rhetoric. It
is the direct reason why the company is in
bankruptcy and slowly coming apart at
the seams

It's amazing how many union represented
employees don't understand simple business
economics. Maybe the company should give
a basic economics lesson to everyone who
is hired so that everyone understands how
aviation economics actually work.

 

[USA320Pilot]

SpinDoc:

Again, you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, even some union leaders (who do not understand economics) do not listen to their financial advisors. Moreover, some people live in denial when industry and company fundamentals are "shouting" at them.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[repeet]

It's amazing how many union represented
employees don't understand simple business
economics. Maybe the company should give
a basic economics lesson to everyone who
is hired so that everyone understands how
aviation economics actually work.

[post="228238"][/post]​

Simple business economics. Two parties contract. One of them cheats, and the other one gets to invoke penalties. Sometimes the other has to drag the first one into court to have judgements levied against it.

If the first party just doesn't want to abide by the contract, then the second one is free to walk away. Simple business economics.

Unless a new contract is ratified by a labor group, the previous one (already with concessions) is still in effect. If the company has it thrown out, by force of law, then, after due process, that group will be free to walk away.

No problem, just simple business economics.

 

[Phoenix]

Your smug malicious attitude is not becoming of you captain.

[post="227157"][/post]​

You're surprised?

Bes regards,

 

[air chief]

SpinDoc:

Again, you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, even some union leaders (who do not understand economics) do not listen to their financial advisors. Moreover, some people live in denial when industry and company fundamentals are "shouting" at them.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

[post="228240"][/post]​

yada-yada-yada..

How abouth CORPORATE ETHICS 101 for the selected few at the top. All of the corporate perks/bonuses that have been paid out to Messrs. Schofield/Wolfie/Gangwal/Seigle and the rest to the merry men would buy a couple of aircraft or made a pension payment for an employee group of your chosing. They line thier pockets first and tell the rest of us WE ARE THE PROBLEM???

I have no loyality to this SLOBBERING BUNCH OF MENTALLY CHALLENGED individuals that run this company. I am so thankful I love what I do..it gets me in the door everyday.

Way I see it....NO ONE TAKES A BONUS until company is profitable PERIOD

 

[BoeingBoy]

SpinDoc says:

"The goal is to lower costs to LCC levels, or slightly lower which will allow the company to start building up cash to pay down the debt and expand."

"Maybe the company should give a basic economics lesson to everyone who is hired so that everyone understands how aviation economics actually work. "

USA320Pilot says:

"some people live in denial when industry and company fundamentals are "shouting" at them."


So, "Riddle me this", said the Joker....

What characteristics are shared by every major airline that was profitable in the third quarter and how many of those characteristics are incorporated into the shifting sands called a Transformation Plan?

A - Point to point route system?

B - Single fleet type?

C - No Express feed?

D - All of the above?

After all, it's simple airline economics - you did attend the class, didn't you?

Jim

 

[firstamendment]

The company asked for $295 million per year in cost cuts, ALPA provided $300 million in the first year and an average of over $360 million per year for the duration of the contract. Furthermore, if the RC4 had sent out the September 6 proposal, instead of roll calling it down by a 4 to 8 margin, which was a decision made against the advice of every advisor and officer, the final deal would have been better.

Since that point the 279 fleet count, minimum block hours, CAR's, fragmentation, MDA displacement rights, and 40% of the DC Plan were lost and other productivity changes were made.

Yes siree, "ignorance is bliss on the boards", especially when one is about to be "imposed".

By the way, speaking of the ALPA's RC4, do not be surprised if they lose control of the MEC on January 31.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

[post="228195"][/post]​

MUST BEAT DEAD HORSE!!! <_< <_<

 

[SpinDoc]

If the first party just doesn't want to abide by the contract, then the second one is free to walk away. Simple business economics.

SpinDoc replies:

Then, walk away. Nobody is forcing anyone
to come to work at US. If you don't like the
terms of your contract, or agree with the steps
the company is taking to survive, leave.
(and take the other negative unionista posters
on this forum with you)

 

[BoeingBoy]

The company is trying to dismantle the huge debt structure that has sent it into bankruptcy 2 times. Without restructuring the debt (which includes labor costs) the company cannot continue to survive.

[post="228153"][/post]​

SpinDoc,

You must have slept through that day in "Airline Economics 101", too....

As a result of BK1 and it's failed Transformation Plan, this company acquired more debt than it shed. That debt was in the form of RJ orders - what was it, something like $2 or $3 billion worth?

Now we're seeing the same all over again. Shed a little debt (primarily the 25 airplanes to be returned to GE) and incur more debt in the form of RJ orders/leases. When you consider that 60% of the airplanes to be returned to GE are older 737-300's (low debt commitment) that will be replaced by shiney new RJ's (high debt commitment), it's the same old song that didn't work the first time.

And they want to employees to pay for hearing that same song once again....I thing it's called "The End Is Near".

Jim

ps - just for the record, we ennded the quarter before BK1 with $5.6 billion in total debt and the quarter before BK2 with $6.2 billion in debt.

 

[BostonTerrier]

Well then let's pose a question that needs to
be asked.

Q: Who knows what this company actually needs
to survive?

A:

Don't believe the union hype and rhetoric. It
is the direct reason why the company is in
bankruptcy and slowly coming apart at
the seams

[post="228238"][/post]​

Interesting. And all along I thought it was due to just a little (a tiny, itty, bitty...) bit of management malfeasance. I stand corrected.

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[N628AU]

No problem, just simple business economics.

[post="228258"][/post]​

You cited examples of business law and business ethics. Big difference from economics.

 

[firstamendment]

SpinDoc:

Again, you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, even some union leaders (who do not understand economics) do not listen to their financial advisors. Moreover, some people live in denial when industry and company fundamentals are "shouting" at them.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

[post="228240"][/post]​

Hey USA320Pilot

I have a few questions for you. You come across, whether you mean to or not, as very anti-union. You can do a song and dance around militant, non-militant stands, but the bottom line is that you are a company man. Just take a look at your past post. Aren't unions suppose to work WITH the company with a slant towards working for the good of the membership? You are very harsh on those who differ from you. The RC4 were doing what they thought was right, yet you have constantly demonized these guys with your constant beating a dead horse quotes. You may say those guys were militant and you are entitled to your opinion, but I thought they were brave and they were standing up for what their membership wanted. I know, ALL the people YOU spoke with ...blah, blah, blah. I guess you think that the entire afa is militant, because the afa leaders are united on how they feel about management, their tactics and their capitulate or liquidate fear based approach.

Do you HAVE to be a card carrying ALPA union member? I know with AFA, you can't be made to be a union member, but you must pay a fee. I am unsure of what that is. With this, you cut your ties to the union and can TRULY have the satisfaction of placing blame on the unions without looking like a hypocrite. Hell, with all the kissing up of management, you too could be a part of the elite who get raises...oh I forgot they took a 1% cut....oh I forgot, we couldn't get quality people to stay. And capt., work your way up enough and maybe you TOO can leave with a golden parachute.

For the first time in months, I am at peace with the possibility that U might go under. My first choice is to stay in the industry AND lifestyle I enjoy. I hope we make it, but I will NOT bend over anymore to the unrelenting threats. I WILL take a stand and it will NOT be in the unemployment line. You see, friend, I have a degree in a field where there is a shortage. I know, then leave now. NO, that is my back-up. But if we settle and round 4 comes along..which according to analyst probably will...I will then be making less than a teacher. I'm close to it now. At least I will have ALL holidays, weekends, and summers off.

The way I see it, you and many of your coworker pilots are up in arms because you have no chance of making what you currently make (WITH your cuts). Ask a 14 year f/a on reserve not getting their time in (thanks to concessions II) and making $17,000 a year what they think of your militant COMPANY stand. Ask them if they give a damn if this company and your over 100k salary survives. But of course, I know what the answer will be. Nobody tells you to stay.

See, the issue is about cowardness...those who drape themselves in fear because they have reached the pinacle of their career. You will NEVER, EVER make what you once did, but YOU can still survive. Those of us living on 30-40k CAN find other jobs. We can afford to be brave and take a stand. YOU can't. But I know, anyone who speaks out should shut up and leave. We are bringing the company down. Well, capt, ain't gonna happen. Unlike this company, I HAVE a plan B, so I no longer fear standing up OR being the fall guy for this industry.

Respectively YOURS,

First

 

[repeet]

SpinDoc replies:

If you don't like the terms of your contract, or agree with the steps
the company is taking to survive, leave.

[post="228289"][/post]​

Actually, I like my current contract, and plan on keeping it. Thank-you.