US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[Edward]

New thread. Gentleman & ladies stick to the issues & not make this personal. Thank you.

 

[pilotn79]

Some here on this forum underestimate the anger on the West side. We are sick and tired of being taken advantage of by a group bent on cashing in on a windfall. Your side has poked us in the chest one time to many and you find yourself in court. Suing our pilots was the last straw for me. Taking that stupid ad out in USA Today was icing on the cake.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Some here on this forum underestimate the anger on the West side. We are sick and tired of being taken advantage of by a group bent on cashing in on a windfall. .

What are you smoking? Windfall on East side? If you guys are that delusional your lawyers will become very wealthy men...

Later,
Eye

 

[pilotn79]

What are you smoking? Windfall on East side? If you guys are that delusional your lawyers will become very wealthy men...

Later,
Eye

OK, another USAPA Koolaide drinker ignoring the facts. You'd have me think that the new company based in Tempe, Arizona was a simple re-location plan by your execs looking for a warmer climate.

 

[ableoneable]

He does indeed present himself that way. He sees all, knows all, and for some unexplainable reason likes to haunt this forum. Although I like your term "convenient innocence" I would use the term busybody. Old pilots never die, they just fade away. Jim is a monumental exception to that rule. :blink:

Jim has never made any self serving comments about the depth or breadth of his knowledge, nor does he do anything overt to, as you say, "present" himself as such.

It's just that most posters, yourself included apparently, have come to the conclusion that his pool of knowledge is wide and deep.

You also term him a busybody because apparently you are on this forum by invitation and Jim is just an interloper.

Please explain why you have an inherent right to post and others do not.

 

[luvthe9]

Some here on this forum underestimate the anger on the West side. We are sick and tired of being taken advantage of by a group bent on cashing in on a windfall. Your side has poked us in the chest one time to many and you find yourself in court. Suing our pilots was the last straw for me. Taking that stupid ad out in USA Today was icing on the cake.

Deleted by Moderator--namecalling.

 

[cubfan]

Some here on this forum underestimate the anger on the West side. We are sick and tired of being taken advantage of by a group bent on cashing in on a windfall. Your side has poked us in the chest one time to many and you find yourself in court. Suing our pilots was the last straw for me. Taking that stupid ad out in USA Today was icing on the cake.

pilotn79,
How exactly are you being taken advantage of? Are you talking about furloughs, both sides have some bad for everyone, not getting a contract, still in negotiations, tough to get anything in this economy, law suits, plenty to go around for both sides, I feel both sides are being taken advantage of............by mgt.

 

[electricjet98]

I think the ONLY ones improving their financial position will be the gaggle of attorneys on these multiple lawsuits.

I wonder how many pilots will reach retirement age prior to this whole affair being resolved?

It may go much quicker than what USAPA had planned. Have you seen the timeline, PB?

Pursuant to Rule 16 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, a Case Management
Conference is set for Monday, December 15, 2008, at 4:00 p.m. in Courtroom 504,
Sandra Day O’Connor U.S. Federal Courthouse, 401 W. Washington St., Phoenix,
Arizona 85003-2151. In preparation for this Case Management Conference, it is hereby
Ordered as follows:
Defendant USAPA is to file its Answer by no later than December 1, 2008.
INITIAL DISCLOSURES
The parties are ordered to provide initial disclosures by no later than
December 5, 2008 in the form required by Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 26(a)(1). The
parties shall file with the Clerk of Court a Notice of Initial Disclosure; copies of the actual
disclosures need not be filed

COMMENCEMENT OF DISCOVERY PERMITTED AND REQUIRED
The limitation on the commencement of formal discovery set forth in Federal Rule
of Civil Procedure 26(d) is waived. Formal discovery not only may commence at any
time after service of process, but the court expects discovery to commence prior to the
scheduling conference. The parties shall serve initial document discovery requests at
least 14 days before the Case Management Conference.

ACCELERATED TRIAL ON PERMANENT INJUNCTION AND LIABILITY FOR
DAMAGES; BIFURCATION OF TRIAL ON AMOUNT OF DAMAGES.
Trial on the claim for permanent injunction and liability for damages is accelerated
and will be set no later than February 17, 2009. Trial on the amount of damages is
bifurcated and will be scheduled, if necessary, after ruling on the trial on permanent
injunction and liability for damages.

TRIAL IN TANDEM OR CONSOLIDATION WITH ADDINGTON v. BRADFORD.
The trial on permanent injunction and liability for damages will be done
simultaneously and in tandem with the trial in Addington v.Bradford, No. CV 08-1728
PHX-NVW. The court will consider at the December 15, 2008, Case Management
Conference whether to formally consolidate the two cases.


Judge Wake is seriously cracking the whip on all parties!

Appeal, you say? I believe that USAPA would need to post a sizable bond in that event...very sizable!

 

[pilotn79]

pilotn79,
How exactly are you being taken advantage of?

Well, there is an attempt for USAPA to take advantage of our pilot group by attempting to collect dues only to turn around and sue the very pilots they claim to represent. Then they attempt to present some fantasy seniority list while the West pilots are furloughed out of order. I'd say they have done a lousy job representing the 5000 plus pilots they claim to represent.

 

[CaptBud330]

Pilotn79, I don't understand. Can you please enlighten me? In the absence of a combined seniority list, how do you conclude you are being furloughed out of seniority. There are furloughs on both sides of the Mississippi, the exact number depends on the individual staffing requirements of the West and East sides. Am I missing something?

 

[Elevation]

America West may hire new pilots if all pilots on the US Airways
seniority list have been offered recall to US Airways or have been offered
a pilot position at America West. New pilots hired during the Separate
Operations will be placed by their date of hire on a third seniority list
entitled New Hire Seniority List, will be junior to all pilots on the pilot
seniority lists of America West and US Airways on the effective date of
this Letter of Agreement, and will continue to be junior to those pilots on
the integrated seniority list of America West and US Airways pilots.

New hires are still working as of today, while more senior pilots are on furlough. So much for DOH bulldogs at USAPA.

 

[N924PS]

[quote name='electricjet98' date='Dec 2 2008, 03:19 PM' post='655680
Judge Wake is seriously cracking the whip on all parties!
[/quote]

That is good news. The sooner the better.

This furball has dragged on far too long, much to management's delight.

 

[Piedmont1984]

New hires are still working as of today, while more senior pilots are on furlough. So much for DOH bulldogs at USAPA.

So let me get this right. Since we are in separate ops and since more furloughs are coming from the west due to market conditions in PHX and LAS, you are saying that management should furlough more from the east instead and then transfer pilots from the west to make up for the shortage created in the east. The transferees will then become east pilots, unless of course this is TDY duty.

Now I get it. :blink:

 

[BoeingBoy]

So let me get this right.

<snip>

Now I get it. :blink:

Not quite, but you need a program to follow the action...

Most seem, naturally, to think in terms of two pilot groups and two seniority lists - East and West. That's the first mistake, since the TA requires 3 seniority lists - East, West, and New Hire. The New Hire list is composed of all pilots not on the East or West lists when the TA was signed.

The TA also stipulates that everyone on the New Hire list is junior to everyone on either the East or West list. That takes us to the two underlying contracts, which specify that furloughs will be in inverse order of seniority. So who is to be furloughed first? Those on the New Hire list since they're junior to those on the East and West lists.

Now, furloughs come along and there are still those from the New Hire list working while some on the West list are furloughed - i.e., junior pilots working while more senior pilots are furloughed.

Jim

 

[Elevation]

Pied84
All I am saying is the furloughs must go in order, not what is cheapest or most convenient for the company but what we agreed on in the TA. Nobody gets furloughed until the guy jr. to him is furloughed also. If it means holding on to extra pilots until the proper order and time line is followed so be it.

P.s.The airline is not in separate ops MX/DX/Training and certificate all the same,the pilot group (and FA's)have separate contracts is the only diff.