US pilot labor thread 6/14-6/20

[sharktooth]

I just received an ALPA message that negotiations continue and furlough mitigation is a top priority.

"furlough mitigation"

So, that is what ALPA is calling it now? Used to be called "save jobs" and MDA and "jets for jobs" was the union brand. I guess ALPA was successful at selling that to US, so they think they can bamboozle the UAL folks.

Watch out for a MDA (Mid-America Airlines) and jetz4jobz. Good luck!

 

[EastUS]

"furlough mitigation"

So, that is what ALPA is calling it now? Used to be called "save jobs" and MDA and "jets for jobs" was the union brand. I guess ALPA was successful at selling that to US, so they think they can bamboozle the UAL folks.

Watch out for a MDA (Mid-America Airlines) and jetz4jobz. Good luck!

It goes without saying that said "mitigation" would historically, also mean that any/all unfortunates suffering a furlough.....would naturally, be considered as "non-persons"/no job/tough luck/etc, in the event of any future Alpa formatted merger. I rather cynically, must wonder if that would be fully "OK" with the ardent Alpa supporter who posted that one. By established Alpa protocols..umm.."policies"..those just a bit upstream from "Save Dave" could "fairly" be placed above a thousand or so UAL people...permanently. Let's have another rousing cheer for Alpa in general...the glories of it's inestimable "processes" ...and "relative" seniority of course.

Of course..the enthusiasm of the Alpa-True-Believer post must be considered in the following light = "FYI, this news is not so devastating for me personally as I am easily safe from any furlough, and would even consider a voluntary leave since my wife's career is far better than this airline career anyway. She does much better than you or I ever will. So your "bad news" and "denial" theory is full of holes." Ah..= "I am easily safe from any furlough" coupled with self-assigned limitations, plus a safety net with a skirt. Pretty much perfect philosophical grounding for embracing Alpa 😉

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Furlough mitigation = Save jobs = Save ALPA dues.

At ALPA, It's ALL about the money!

Heaven help us all! And I mean ALL Americans!

You know what? I doubt if many carriers will have the "opportunity" in this climate to even go chapter 11. There's NO financing available, with the tight credit markets and crappy business conditions, to get money for restructuring (aka "exit money").

I hope LCC isn't one of them but I'm worried that the next carrier or two to go bankrupt will liquidate after a short period of court protection and feverish, futile attempts to lineup corporate backing.

That may be why you don't hear anybody discussing it. Just spend ALL the cash and shut 'er down. The only thing I can think of that MIGHT have an impact is if congress allows more foreign ownership. US companies must look DIRT CHEAT to the Europeans right now!

I hope I'm wrong, but this is beginning to look to me like the WORST economic conditions since the 1930s. All we need now is a market crash.

There, did that cheer everyone up?

 

[767jetz]

You know, on page 8 someone asked a legitimate question about how many furloughs I expect at UA from the 100 airplanes being retired. I simply stated:

"No word yet. ALPA and company are sill talking.
My guess, (and this number is a complete WAG) is about 500-700."

Now here we are with 3 pages of attacks, accusations, insults, misinformation, political drama, and theories of doom and gloom. It was the same reaction when I stated that a call sign is insignificant and not worth fighting over. I think you guys just love to fight. Why is this so important and emotional to you anyway? Why do you get so offended so easily?

Step away from the edge and take a deep breath. It's just a job. If it is really that important to you to know if my estimate of UA's manpower is valid or not, you will find out soon enough whats in store.

I will get back to AAA73Pilot when I have a definitive answer. I've already said if I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it. Until then, relax. I think this thread has gotten far enough off topic, and I don't care to go around the pattern again. I'm declaring minimum fuel. 😉

 

[LSS]

QUOTE (767jetz7 @ Jun 16 2008, 08:34 PM)
"I just received an ALPA message that negotiations continue and furlough mitigation is a top priority."

767, having seen first hand how ALPA handled the events leading up to the USAIR's termination of our defined benefit plan, ALPA promised many things...

1) If we change the accrual rate of the DB plan and cap it at 50%, it will save our DB plan (December 2002 - Restructuring II)... (This agreement was not pilot ratified... MEC ratified)...

2) The company announces that they intend to file a motion with the BK court (BK 1) to terminate the pilot's DB plan, and does so on January 30, 2003...

3) ALPA says they will fight the termination and will mitigate the damage the company is seeking... (HA!)

4) After the hearings on the termination of the DB plan were concluded and Judge Mitchell stated that because USAIR hadn't filled 1113 nor 1114 motions, he did not have the authority to terminate the DB plan and said it would have to be settled between U and ALPA under the RLA... although he did rule that U met the financial criteria for a distressed termination of the plan (the reason why the judge found that U met the financial criteria is because ALPA never put up any defense against the company's claims that the DB plan was severely under funded. The reason why they never put up any defense is because they had failed in their fiduciary responsibility… they didn't have a clue as to the actual funding levels of this plan… they never audited the plan nor did any analysis as to whether the plan was severely under funded, whether assets of the plan were moved to other employee retirement plans… nothing… ALPA just accepted what the company stated as fact!)

5) The pilots see a glimmer of hope... surely ALPA would not agree to the termination of the DB plan.

6) ALPA swears that no matter what happens they do not want the "blood on their hands" for agreeing to a distressed termination of the plan, and that it would definitely be put out for pilot ratification...

Well, the bottom line to this long, painful story is in the dead of night, ALPA agreed to the termination and screwed the pooch. It never went out for pilot ratification as ALPA claimed "there wasn't enough time"… BS!

So excuse those of us who are less than willing to believe anything that ALPA spouts. If ALPA National had only spent a miniscule of the enormous amount spent trying to keep U in the fold and used those funds to investigate the status of our DB plan, things that followed may have turned out much differently. ALPA is a conflicted organization, and I do not consider them to be anything but self-serving.

I hope ALPA does right by the UAL pilots and I hope their tough talk has some backbone... but I seriously doubt it.

Good luck to you guys (and gals) you're going to need it just like the majority of pilots in this profession given what is happening in the industry today.

 

[KTM300]

Now here we are with 3 pages of attacks, accusations, insults, misinformation, political drama, and theories of doom and gloom. It was the same reaction when I stated that a call sign is insignificant and not worth fighting over. I think you guys just love to fight. Why is this so important and emotional to you anyway? Why do you get so offended so easily?

If you work for United, why are you so enamored with what is happening at USAirways? Why do you spend so much time on a forum that you presumably have no connection too?

 

[767jetz]

Good luck to you guys (and gals) you're going to need it just like the majority of pilots in this profession given what is happening in the industry today.[/color]

I hear what you're saying. My only contention is that I never have expected ALPA National to step in and solve any of UA's problems.

From my experience, everything good that has ever come from my union has come from the hard work and dedication of my fellow UA pilots who volunteer their time, effort, and ability dealing with our issues. And it is that work and our unity that I place my trust in. NOT ALPA National.

UAL's MEC has had a pretty good track record. Not perfect by any means. But they did a pretty good job navigating rough seas overall, considering the environment we found ourselves in. A union is only as good as it's local members. I have had an opportunity recently to speak with and work with my current MEC chairman and several committees, and I trust that they will do what's in the best interest of our pilots.

I agree that we all need a bit of luck in this industry.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

For any west US Airways pilots; if furlough is a concern or you care about your fellow pilots who may be furloughed, I would strongly suggest you get involved with your union in an effort to help mitigate furloughs. You have the opportunity to volunteer and/or provide direction to your representative only if you are a member. Join now and be heard.

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem..........

Hmmmm......

As a westy, I'd say there is quite a dilemma with my two choices here:
a. Pay no dues. Have no say in union. Union strapped for operating funds, likely will be bankrupt within year.
b. Pay dues and assessments. Still have no say in union. Union gets smarmy and fat, hangs around abusing westys for rest of my career. (OK, fusapa is already totally smarmy).

Help me out here, checktwelve, which choice would YOU make?


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[flynomore]

Hmmmm......

As a westy, I'd say there is quite a dilemma with my two choices here:
a. Pay no dues. Have no say in union. Union strapped for operating funds, likely will be bankrupt within year.
b. Pay dues and assessments. Still have no say in union. Union gets smarmy and fat, hangs around abusing westys for rest of my career. (OK, fusapa is already totally smarmy).

Help me out here, checktwelve, which choice would YOU make?


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

======================================================================

Help me out here, skipper. Just what exactly DOES your added "f" mean for usapa?

Some might not have enjoyed all that alpa did for them, and had some terms of endearment for it. Did those terms change any of the outcomes or merely give the illusion of power to the name caller. Sort of like the first time you uttered a swear word.

 

[767jetz]

Furlough mitigation = Save jobs = Save ALPA dues.

Well then, regardless of motivation they are on the same page as their membership. That's a good thing. And I hope USAPA is doing what they can to mitigate furloughs as well. It always a travesty when good pilots go out the door.

Heaven help us all! And I mean ALL Americans!

I hope LCC isn't one of them but I'm worried that the next carrier or two to go bankrupt will liquidate after a short period of court protection and feverish, futile attempts to lineup corporate backing.

I hope I'm wrong, but this is beginning to look to me like the WORST economic conditions since the 1930s.

Agreed. There is little chance of CH11's. More likely CH7's. No one is 100% safe. Not US. Not UA. Not AA. And IMO not even SW. It is just a matter of varying degrees of bad. But it's bad for everyone. This is becoming a world economic problem, not an airline problem.

And by the way, as for this statement:

Oh, enjoy your civil war and LOA 93 while you're at it, and good luck with BK 3.

I retract what I said and apologize. I do not relish the hardship of anyone in this industry nor do I wish the fate of bankruptcy on anyone. I do not endeavor to stoop to such levels, regardless of how others conduct themselves on this forum.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

======================================================================

Help me out here, skipper. Just what exactly DOES your added "f" mean for usapa?

Some might not have enjoyed all that alpa did for them, and had some terms of endearment for it. Did those terms change any of the outcomes or merely give the illusion of power to the name caller. Sort of like the first time you uttered a swear word.

Gee, flynomore, I don't know for sure what it means. It just comes out that way every time I try to type ewe-sap-uh.

And just what exactly does the "f" mean at the beginning of your handle? Hmmm???

I'll share some help I was recently given in the simulator: figure it out.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[flynomore]

I thought so. Thanks for the clarification. Seems that the moderators aren't interested either.

I do hope to find you in the next cycle of training. It would prove interesting indeed.

Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate. Lord Byron

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

I thought so. Thanks for the clarification. Seems that the moderators aren't interested either.

I do hope to find you in the next cycle of training. It would prove interesting indeed.

Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate. Lord Byron

You're welcome.

Now getting back to my earlier post regarding the dilemma each and every west pilot faces. It seems that none of the folks who are trying to "help" the west have an answer for that. And of course I wouldn't expect you personally to provide a solution either unless you can google it and then cut/paste.

And its not going to be long before most of the non-junior, non-ex-furloughed folks on the east figure out that their decision to allow ewe-sap-uh (does that feel better for your delicate sense of what may or may not be profanity?) take over the collective bargaining duties, was a HUGE mistake for their professional well being. From what I've seen, the dissention is starting to rumble in the background already.

Meanwhile, have you any additional "brainy" quotes you like to cut/paste for us, FNM? I really enjoyed the last one.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[trunion]

You know, on page 8 someone asked a legitimate question about how many furloughs I expect at UA from the 100 airplanes being retired. I simply stated:

"No word yet. ALPA and company are sill talking.
My guess, (and this number is a complete WAG) is about 500-700."

Now here we are with 3 pages of attacks, accusations, insults, misinformation, political drama, and theories of doom and gloom. It was the same reaction when I stated that a call sign is insignificant and not worth fighting over. I think you guys just love to fight. Why is this so important and emotional to you anyway? Why do you get so offended so easily?

Step away from the edge and take a deep breath. It's just a job. If it is really that important to you to know if my estimate of UA's manpower is valid or not, you will find out soon enough whats in store.

I will get back to AAA73Pilot when I have a definitive answer. I've already said if I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it. Until then, relax. I think this thread has gotten far enough off topic, and I don't care to go around the pattern again. I'm declaring minimum fuel. 😉

Actually, I am almost positive that the call sign talk, which was meant to be lighthearted at the time of furlough announcements, was started by a west poster who really seemed to want the CACTUS call sign to be used by UsAirways. Most of the other replies were meant to show understanding for his/her interest in it. Many didn't like it, but they weren't disrespectful to that person's interest in it.

Just my observation... I may have read into this all wrong.

 

[checksix]

From my experience, everything good that has ever come from my union has come from the hard work and dedication of my fellow UA pilots who volunteer their time, effort, and ability dealing with our issues. And it is that work and our unity that I place my trust in. NOT ALPA National. UAL's MEC has had a pretty good track record.

Out of curiosity, what is your experience, how long have you been with UAUA?