US Pilot Labor Thread 7/27-8/3

[EastUS]

Sorry East I do not need to be any of those things. Because you see there are highly experienced DISPATHCERS that looked at those flight plans and decided that there was enough fuel on board.

cleardirect: "Then there was the training department that trained those said experienced captains. They also looked at the fuel usage and came to the conclusion that these 8 pilots were way out of the norm. I did not pick them out at random. Some highly experienced people did looked at the facts and made that decision."

Without any disrespect to the training department:Would it surprise you to learn that those who picked the "8 knckleheads" as you term them, actually have far less oceanic crossings and flight hours to their credit than do the "8 knuckleheads"? You may not have picked them..but you're clearly fine with burning them at the stake..without your having even the slightest clue about anything involved here it seems.

No matter. What completely blew me away with your postings here is covered below:

"Sorry East I do not need to be any of those things. Because you see there are highly experienced DISPATHCERS that looked at those flight plans and decided that there was enough fuel on board."

Dispatchers..."decided that there was enough fuel on board."??? OK then...no need for you to ever think at all. Why even ever look at your fuel flow or quantity gauges/indications?...Everything must be "fine" at all times. We all know that winds aloft never change...One always gets their filed cruise flight level on the tracks....Weather conditions always remain completely predictable....Airports and runways never close unexpectedly..and without bothering with countless, and additonally fussy little concerns that can spoil one's day...it's truly and always "The Best of All Possible Worlds" aloft Dr. Pangloss......Un-Freaking-Believable!!!

In all the fullest seriousness possible with such obvious insanity....I honestly can NOT believe that you just "said" what you did...and still pretend to be a "Pilot".

OK..You've now removed ALL possible doubt. You ARE completely and unquestionably in the wrong business, and, imho, not the least bit fit for the task of ever commanding any aircraft. Seriously; Please tell me that you're some west pilot's spouse or kid, just trying to support them in their anti-east crusade..?? I would really, really like to believe that..rather than consider any other possibilities...."shudder".

 

[hp_fa]

Observation Mode: On

Moderator can we have a ruling on this statement please. I believe that this is WAY over the line here.

That was a yawner, as in a non-event.

Observation Mode: Off

 

[Elevation]

Ok I won't pin you down on a certain date put what year is parity suppose to be here? 2010?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Before you experts out west who have not yet crossed a body of water larger than Teddy Roosevelt Lake condemn our eight "management designated trainees" as being wayward pilots, perhaps you should consider the following.

They are highly experienced with many years of Atlantic crossings. PHL routinely takes more fuel to operate into than reflected in the releases. A fact being vividly underscored by the hundreds of ASAP reports which are now confirming the same. The judgement and practices of these eight may very well be something which should be emulated by the rest of the pilot group, rather than ridiculed and disparaged as being an aberration.

History teaches that in every social group a small minority often leads the pack, thinks and acts outside the box, leads the way for the rest to follow.

In fact, the training department may reconsider their position and philosophy on the issue of fuel after they have "debriefed" these eight - and may very well decide to adopt or modify the way in which transatlantic flights are dispatched.

And although the west has withdrawn it's participation and input, lets not forget we are in a contract negotiating environment. Management, true to form, will endeavor to manage our expectations. Could the "fuel awareness re-education" issue possibly be part of that strategy?

Lets wait until due process runs it's course before you sit back and smirk.

 

[EastUS]

Ok I won't pin you down on a certain date put what year is parity suppose to be here? 2010?

Why don't you afford us your best guess? Based on the accuracy of all historical postings..we'll then have a better idea of when it's least likely to occur......

Borrowing from PI1984's apt observation regarding the fuel "Inquisition": "Lets wait until due process runs it's course before you sit back and smirk."

 

[cleardirect]

Dispatchers..."decided that there was enough fuel on board."??? OK then...no need for you to ever think at all. Why even ever look at your fuel flow or quantity gauges/indications?...Everything must be "fine" at all times. We all know that winds aloft never change...One always gets their filed cruise flight level on the tracks....Weather conditions always remain completely predictable....Airports and runways never close unexpectedly..and without bothering with countless, and additonally fussy little concerns that can spoil one's day...it's truly and always "The Best of All Possible Worlds" aloft Dr. Pangloss......Un-Freaking-Believable!!!

BLAH, BLAH,BLAH Tell us all again what a great and experienced aviator that you are. Yes we all experience the same thing every flight so what. Oh but wait. Someone was advancing the theory that it was only 15 minutes of fuel. After a grueling 8 hour flight of sitting on you’re a$$ how far is 15 minutes going to get you? A couple turns in the hold. Are you so afraid to cross the big bad scary ocean with your comfort blanket of only 15 minutes.

Just admit it. This was a deliberate act to get the attention of management. Well it worked you got it. Congratulations. It is time to learn that there are consequences to your actions. Sending 8 guys to class that are way out of the norm is one of them.

I am sure that the dispatchers dearly love to hear you call. With all of the disrespect that you show them here. You must be one of their favorites.

 

[ussnark]

"They found, however, that their views on the methodology used to protect that authority varied from the unanimous views held by the Board of Pilot Representatives."

That unanimous view was to spend over $100,000 on an ad. If it was not the ad than please explain just what “methodologyâ€￾ did they disagree with? Would it be the ill conceived idea to go to the feds and use safety as a political weapon? Would it be defending 8 knuckleheads that are running around wasting gas to make a point?

Just curious what was the reason if not the stated reason from the official source?

Why don't you call USAPA and find out? I like the guy, as many do, but sometimes one picks up behaviors that are not useful and, in fact, can be damaging. You know, the road to heck is paved.....

ALPA has major problems in its committee structures and, as a result, has major chain of command issues. I think USAPA put a stop to this particular set of behaviors that failed ALPA time and again.

 

[EastUS]

BLAH, BLAH,BLAH Oh but Are you so afraid to cross the big bad scary ocean with your comfort blanket of only 15 minutes.

Safely flying people people within the commercial airline environment should NEVER provide any issue of being "so afraid"....That's the whole point in properly using one's knowledge and experience. Your comment fully reinforces my earlier estimations of you on all levels. This isn't the least bit about me, or any macho BS, nor should any such EVER attend the transportation of passengers. An airliner's no place to impress anyone with how "tough" one is,.and certainly...isn't any appropriate venue for intentionally operating within any "scary" zone over "the big bad ocean"...or anywhere...EVER. It further amazes me that you could even approach an issue of rationally planning fuel loads with such adolescent nonsense as "big bad scary ocean"..."comfort blanket"..and whatever other nonsensical drivel.

While your opinion's actually of no concern whatsoever to me: I respect and get along very well with the professionals working dispatch....but they do not fly the plane, and may and do sometimes miss details attendant to recent airport delay trends, seasonal weather issues, and many things one must be aware of. The finest dispatcher alive can only plan flights based upon what data he/she has available. As any supposed "Pilot"...it's on YOU to make the final decisions as to what's appropriate for any flight. It's incumbent on you to use your best judgement, and evaluate each and every flight based upon recent experiences, best possible projections of conditions, likely delays..and everything that you know and can employ to make the flight to the intended destination both successful and uneventfull. If, as incredibly seems the case here...you honestly don't "Get That", and are fine with just grabbing the flight plan and dispatched fuel and zooming off...words truly fail me....Perhaps it's you that should properly be sent for additonal training.


"Just admit it. This was a deliberate act to get the attention of management." Just admit it = You've clearly not even the tiniest clue as to what you're incessantly babbling on about, nor are you the least bit qualified to even open your mouth about atlantic flying..and, imho, based upon what I've read..pretty much any/all aspects of flight....period. It's always best to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than speak..and remove all possible doubt..."It is time to learn that there are consequences to your actions." = " BLAH, BLAH,BLAH".."Yes we all experience the same thing every flight so what"..and my personal favorite = "how far is 15 minutes going to get you?"....

 

[ussnark]

This was a deliberate act to get the attention of management.

No.

Flooding the system with hundreds of ASAP reports is a deliberate act to get the attention of management.

Adding 15 to 20 extra minutes of fuel is an attempt to cover one's tutu for managers that place cost above safety.

You want to see something silly? Go see what a flight plan projects for missed approach at SFO to an alternate of OAK. When one actually does one, likely, along with a lot of other planes, one will see Point Reyes, the east side of the bay and never see 7000 feet, as opposed to their completely unrealistic zipity do-da flight of fancy. I'd question your pilotage abilities if you do not add fuel for that. and that is only one, of many examples.

 

[sharktooth]

While your opinion's actually of no concern whatsoever to me: I respect and get along very well with the professionals working dispatch....but they do not fly the plane, and may and do sometimes miss details attendant to recent airport delay trends, seasonal weather issues, and many things one must be aware of. The finest dispatcher alive can only plan flights based upon what data he/she has available. As any supposed "Pilot"...it's on YOU to make the final decisions as to what's appropriate for any flight. It's incumbent on you to use your best judgement, and evaluate each and every flight based upon recent experiences, best possible projections of conditions, likely delays..and everything that you know and can employ to make the flight to the intended destination both successful and uneventfull. If, as incredibly seems the case here...you honestly don't "Get That", and are fine with just grabbing the flight plan and dispatched fuel and zooming off...words truly fail me....Perhaps it's you that should properly be sent for additonal training.

Aside from all that, a lot can change in seven to nine hours of flight.

Perhaps he should ask the VP flight how the FAA views unplanned stops for fuel.

 

[dariencc]

Sorry East I do not need to be any of those things. Because you see there are highly experienced DISPATHCERS that looked at those flight plans and decided that there was enough fuel on board. Taking into account all of the variables required.

This is just flat out embarrassing. It reads more like a junior high school career day writing assignment than the thoughts of a professional airline pilot. Please tell us you are another Cessna 150 wannabe and not one of our own.

And nice touch capitalizing the word dispatchers, even as you misspelled it.

Then there was the training department that trained those said experienced captains. They also looked at the fuel usage and came to the conclusion that these 8 pilots were way out of the norm.

You don't know what you are talking about. Training was tasked with administering this "program" by higher authority. They didn't analyze the fuel burn of anyone. It is also true that you would be hard pressed to find a Check Airman who thinks this was a proper use of their department.

I understand that it can be difficult for you not to see Robert Isom as larger than life, but try.

 

[CaptBud330]

As an ex-A330 Check Airman, I will tell you I would rather have more then less fuel. I can't tell you the number of times we came within just a few hundred pounds of having to divert to our alternate. Only the professionalism of the British Airways crews telling the final controller to let us (meaning US Airways) go ahead of them, allowed us to get to our intended destination.
Until you fly international, don't underestimate the value of more fuel regardless of what dispatch calculates.

 

[EastUS]

This is just flat out embarrassing. It reads more like a junior high school career day writing assignment than the thoughts of a professional airline pilot. Please tell us you are another Cessna 150 wannabe and not one of our own.

"It is also true that you would be hard pressed to find a Check Airman who thinks this was a proper use of their department." I should have thought to add that same notion as well. I've had a couple of chats with one of the great many, very decent guys we have in that department, and gotten much the same response.

Ah well...It all just gives the more rabid "and we hate you guys", completely blind westies something new to chew on...drool over, and drone on about. When has it ever been the case that such folks have even felt the slightest need for any facts anyway?

 

[EastUS]

As an ex-A330 Check Airman, I will tell you I would rather have more then less fuel. I can't tell you the number of times we came within just a few hundred pounds of having to divert to our alternate. Only the professionalism of the British Airways crews telling the final controller to let us (meaning US Airways) go ahead of them, allowed us to get to our intended destination.
Until you fly international, don't underestimate the value of more fuel regardless of what dispatch calculates.

Thank you Sir. Perhaps it'll help some people's understanding to hear such directly from one who's clearly and fully qualified to speak on the matter.

 

[elixir]

Indeed. Thanks for stepping in to what can only be described as an education into the mindset of this poster...hopefully, he is alone in his professional flight ideals.

You know, I've met some great guys out west during my furlough...but some of the stuff I read these days is simply a shame.

This "dispatcher comment" is just the latest.

I've been flying professionally for 20+ years....don't ask me how many times I've been handed a pile of crap in the planning stages by a dispatcher. I'm not knocking this one , per se', but too many things change during a 6-10 hour westbound "crossing" to just 'go to sleep" as our westerly friend suggests...

What a foolish thing to say in light of the experience level of the people you are talking to.

Don't continue along those lines of dialogue. It doesn't work for you.

MAYBE, you are a west captain who is in command of 150 seat 320 on the way from PHX to MCI...or even Florida, or Mexico....
...and maybe not, either way, and no matter, the discovery over 15 minutes of fuel in a flight that carried 130K lbs of fuel for 6-10 hours into the wind and across the pond into NY airspace pretty much excludes you from making any relevent criticism thereof.

You know, as fate would have it, I know a 330 check airman or two...and have ridden up front on a return to PHL from a few places "over there"....and I observed the discussions about fuel WELL before we ever talked to NY as we made the bend south towards PHL....because it's (usually ) fine on the crossing itself, and it usually hits the fan when the handoff from Gander begins...AND THE VECTORING BEGINS, AND THE EARLY DESCENTS BEGIN...as directed by ATC....none of this can be properly "forecasted" by a "DISPATCHER"..it's all a WAG at that point...

Which is where our fabulously experienced 330 guys step in.

Thanks guys... you know your job better than the accountants do...