US Pilots Thread for the week 9/14-9/21.

[EastUS]

Four west pilots have received certified letters from USAPA demanding dues payment.

Today the company decided that, for at least two of them, there will be no terminations for failure to pay dues to USAPA.

Please keep us all informed as to any/all outcomes after the smoke finally clears.....

 

[ableoneable]

Your point is? All the new hires are being furloughed and the rest have all been around longer. It is a labor union after all. As a point of fact, they are holding on to the jobs they were recalled to, their jobs as you would put it.

This furlough is because of a weakening economy and high fuel costs, this merger has nothing to do with it and because of the revenue being produced by East network is far better than it could be. Blame it on whoever you need to though, if it makes you sleep better.

If you want decision on layoffs based on subjectivity and merit, get a job in the white collar world or deal with the fact the pilot profession chose trade unionism.

There is no "east" network. It's a combined company and any routes can be operated by any crews.

I know you like to point to the last set of financials, before operations were combined, that purportedly showed all the revenue in the east.

You always conveniently ignore the footnotes that clearly state that for accounting purposes all debts and charges were moved to the west operation for this period so it was not a representative accounting of profitability.

The jobs that the east pilots were recalled to had ceased to exist. It was the merger that made them possible. Even the most ardent defenders of a surviving independent USAir have conceded that it would have been an operation vastly smaller than the east operation as it was at PID.

 

[ableoneable]

Please keep us all informed as to any/all outcomes after the smoke finally clears.....

Correction.

I have now been informed that all four have been told by the company that they will not be terminated for non payment of dues.

Off to the arbitrator once more......

 

[EastUS]

While a union may make seniority decisions within ‘a wide range ofreasonableness . . . in serving the (interests of the) unit it represents,’ such
decisions may not be made solely for the benefit of a stronger, more
politically favored group over a minority group.

Good luck in all attempts at establishing that DOH/LOS concepts, as long and well-established tenets of unionism, amount to nothing more than being "solely for the benefit of a a stronger"etc,.....merely because such concepts don't suit your selfish purposes.

 

[EastUS]

Correction.

I have now been informed that all four have been told by the company that they will not be terminated for non payment of dues.

Off to the arbitrator once more......

As I said; Let us all know what actually happens when all the smoke finally clears......

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

There is no "east" network. It's a combined company and any routes can be operated by any crews.

I know you like to point to the last set of financials, before operations were combined, that purportedly showed all the revenue in the east.

You always conveniently ignore the footnotes that clearly state that for accounting purposes all debts and charges were moved to the west operation for this period so it was not a representative accounting of profitability.

The jobs that the east pilots were recalled to had ceased to exist. It was the merger that made them possible. Even the most ardent defenders of a surviving independent USAir have conceded that it would have been an operation vastly smaller than the east operation as it was at PID.

The charges you refer to were minimal to the profits and losses being shown and the argument America West would have been significantly smaller could be equally made. The fact of the matter is it is irrelevant to trade unionism. The PID, is an ALPA term and no longer applies and such things as "snap shots" or financial arguments have no bearing in the world of true labor. The paint on your plain, the color and style of your uniform, the corporate culture having nothing to do with a labor union. Its about Friday and Payday and how many years ago you started punching the time clock. Irrelevant items to unionism seem to apply for pilots because of their ego centric arrogance and inability to see that they are heavy equipment operators. Pilots adopted collective bargaining and unionism, it should operate no differently than it does for the Longshoreman. Until pilots recognize this, the profession will not and cannot recover.

 

[EastUS]

The jobs that the east pilots were recalled to had ceased to exist. It was the merger that made them possible. Even the most ardent defenders of a surviving independent USAir have conceded that it would have been an operation vastly smaller than the east operation as it was at PID.

Apparently..even the most ardent defenders for the AWA Uber Alles fantasy can't seem to ever hear, or at least ever comprehend, that without the merger..your bunch was pretty much toast as well.

"The jobs that the east pilots were recalled to had ceased to exist." Ummm...OK..so; said jobs, while now again, very clearly existent, simply shouldn't be staffed by east people who were recalled to them?..simply because of your very convenient definitions and notions?...none of which are even the least bit concerned with so much as anyone's length of service, much less DOH?....I see...Too "funny" for words. In the fullest truth; I've NEVER, in all my entire life..seen such an utterly amazing sense of wholesale, mind-numbing, and universal entitlement as that which exists out west.......Perhaps..just perhaps...your group's elite brain trust shouldn't have so cavalierly discarded compromise by LOS at Wye River.....

Westpuslot: "pilots because of their ego centric arrogance and inability to see that they are heavy equipment operators and if they adopt collective bargaining and unionism, it should operate no differently than it does for the Longshoreman. Until pilots recognize this, the profession will not and cannot recover." Very much dead-on sir, and fully agreed with here.

 

[ableoneable]

Apparently..even the most ardent defenders for the AWA Uber Alles fantasy can't seem to ever hear, or at least ever comprehend, that without the merger..your bunch was pretty much toast as well.

"The jobs that the east pilots were recalled to had ceased to exist." Ummm...OK..so; said jobs, while now again, very clearly existent, simply shouldn't be staffed by east people who were recalled to them?..simply because of your very convenient definitions and notions?...none of which are eent he least bit concerned with so much as anyone's length of service, much less DOH....I see...Too "funny" for words. In the fullest truth' I've NEVER, in all my entire life..seen such an utterly amazing sense of wholesale, mind-numbing, and universal entitlement as that which exists out west.......

Had the merger not occurred USAir would have ceased to exist. With the exception of the east pilot group this is a truth universally believed.

The west would have run into problems and could have conceivably needed to file chapter 11 down the road. They could have also merged again, there were many possibilities, for the east.. none.

Pilots had a choice as to where to work. I know several who saw the writing on the wall at USAir, resigned, and came to work at AWA.

What you don't seem able to accept is that all of the LOS at USAir old is meaningless because that company is gone. Sixteen years of on again off again service does not entitle an employee to a mythical superseniority that should allow the displacement of a pilot who went to work for a growing versus a shrinking concern.

It is you who firmly believe that you are entitled to something which is not yours. East furloughees have replaced working west pilots. Hardly fair or equitable. Apparently the east pilots do believe, however, that they are entitled to these positions.

 

[fodase]

Good luck in all attempts at establishing that DOH/LOS concepts, as long and well-established tenets of unionism, amount to nothing more than being "solely for the benefit of a a stronger"etc,.....merely because such concepts don't suit your selfish purposes.

"
"a. The US Airways Pilots Improperly Used USAPA As A Tool.
Air Wisconsin Pilots Protection Committee v. Sanderson, 909 F.2d 213 (7th Cir.
1990), recognized that a new union violates the duty of fair representation if it is used as
a tool by the majority to evade their duty to support a seniority arbitration award created
under a former union. After an ALPA Merger policy arbitration established an integrated
seniority list, the larger of the two merging pilot groups threatened to “oust[] ALPA in
favor of a union not pledged to defend the arbitrators’ award.â€￾ Id. at 217. The court
observed that, had this threat been carried out, it would have been a violation of the duty
of fair representation by the new union because:
[A]n attempt by a majority of the employees in a collective bargaining unitto gang up against a minority of employees in the fashion apparentlyenvisaged by the plaintiffs could itself be thought a violation of the duty offair representation by the union that the majority used as its tool.
Id. The US Airways Pilots actually carried out such threats and used USAPA to oust
ALPA. They did this so that they could have a union that was not directly pledged to
support the Nicolau Award. Just as predicted in Air Wisconsin, this violated the duty of
fair representation. "

Don't let the truth get in the way.

 

[EastUS]

What you don't seem able to accept is that all of the LOS at USAir old is meaningless because that company is gone.

I can accept that just fine..since I've been through several mergers...it seems that you're the one suffering from some aberrational fantasies therein = AWA would have been just fine...those precious, and utterly absurd "career expectations" out there had some/ANY actual validity within the real world..and...well....the usual, wholesale denial drill out there methinks..."nothing new to see here folks...move along"

As per: "all of the LOS at USAir old is meaningless because that company is gone" As AWA's no longer, in any way, shape or form... the "old" AWA: One must properly assume that, given the fact that you hold such views..that furloughs/upgrades/bids/et al out west should perhaps be determined by placing all your names into a hat and drawing for the results? 😉 Nevermind...I forgot for a moment = Your DOH established seniority and bidding out there's quite precious to you...untill it fails to serve your purposes of course???...😉

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Had the merger not occurred USAir would have ceased to exist. With the exception of the east pilot group this is a truth universally believed.

The west would have run into problems and could have conceivably needed to file chapter 11 down the road. They could have also merged again, there were many possibilities, for the east.. none.

Pilots had a choice as to where to work. I know several who saw the writing on the wall at USAir, resigned, and came to work at AWA.

What you don't seem able to accept is that all of the LOS at USAir old is meaningless because that company is gone. Sixteen years of on again off again service does not entitle an employee to a mythical superseniority that should allow the displacement of a pilot who went to work for a growing versus a shrinking concern.

It is you who firmly believe that you are entitled to something which is not yours. East furloughees have replaced working west pilots. Hardly fair or equitable. Apparently the east pilots do believe, however, that they are entitled to these positions.

Unionism is entitlement and that entitlement is based off the only quantitatively objective criteria, longevity. Again if you want subjectivity, you need to exit the union world. Subjectivity doesn't apply.

The AWA CEO has cratered the who saved who argument so many times it is hard to count. In his own words, Frontier was a better positioned airline than AWA but it is all meaningless unless of course you live in the ALPA, quasi union world. Anyone smart can see what a failed endeavor the ALPA experiment is. With their latest resolution to the ALPA BOD it seems a few smart guys at UAL see the writing on the wall if things continue on the current path. Organized Labor and pilots haven't belonged in the same sentence for a long time with few exceptions. What is going on at Midwest and Spirit, won't just be relegated to the smaller guys if pilots don't start embracing true unionism and your attitude and opinions are far from that.

 

[ableoneable]

I can accept that just fine..since I've been through several mergers...it seems that you're the one suffering from some aberrational fantasies therein = AWA would have been just fine...those precious, and utterly absurd "career expectations" out there had some/ANY actual validity within the real world..and...well....the usual, wholesale denial drill out there methinks..."nothing new to see here folks...move along"

Never said that AWA would be "just fine."

With respect to "absurd career expectations"; you are the definitive pot calling the kettle black.

I guess that should be unsurprising since it was the east who put your senior most furloughee on the stand during arbitration to explain how he "fully expected" to be a very very senior A-330 captain and to craft a list that did not allow him to retire at less than number 25 on the combined seniority list was a travesty of justice.

The neutral chosen by the east side found this argument completely laughable, as did the other two members of the arbitration panel yet you cling to this irrational position as a universal truth.

USAir and AWA were not equals. USAir was headed for oblivion, and while AWA was not in a position to achieve world dominance it was a sure thing that they would still be around in 12 months.

There is not a pilot on the planet who the day before the merger would have taken a job at USAir over one at AWA.

Why?

Because USAir was an obvious black hole and AWA was still expanding, ungrading, taking deliveries and lastly, actually profitable.

There was a fundamental difference when it came to career expectations. West pilots had hope of a career while east pilots were looking at certain unemployment.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

embers of the arbitration panel yet you cling to this irrational position as a universal truth.

USAir and AWA were not equals. USAir was headed for oblivion, and while AWA was not in a position to achieve world dominance it was a sure thing that they would still be around in 12 months.

Why don't you read the arbitrator's award in the case of the dispatchers? See what he thought of the argument you are making. He wasn't even an octogenerian to boot. Of course in your mind pilots are different that dispatchers or any other unionized group with a specialized skill.

 

[EastUS]

"
They did this so that they could have a union that was not directly pledged to
support the Nicolau Award.

Don't let the truth get in the way.

Cute..but wholesale BS. A great many wanted Alpo gone for a very long time. Methinks you've got a rather steep and entirely uphill battle. Let's let the courts decide.

 

[EastUS]

Never said that AWA would be "just fine."

With respect to "absurd career expectations"; you are the definitive pot calling the kettle black.

Well..there's a minor breathrough.

As per your assigning me equally brain-dead fantasies of "career expectations"...I've previously noted seeing several mergers...even you must know better than to imagine I've the least notions of 'career expectations" fantasies having even the tiniest validity...or any worth at all. Well...maybe you don't really yet understand the inherent absurdity/insanity in even the very term "career exectations"...Give it enough time and you will. "Career expectations" are entirely fantasized constructs suitable only for children playing during recess....and perhaps newlyweds as well 😉

I'll give you "career expectations", as personally seen over the course of many years:
1) PSA..Wow!..My dream airline!..I'm going to run an MD-80 around, live near friends and family, and have a great time with wonderful people.
2) USAir comes along...scratch plan #1 above 😉
3) Piedmont is merged in...things change yet again.
4) Looks like it's marry up with United time...Ooops!...Just kidding!
5) Looks like it's tied to AWA time...Yuch!!...Oh well/etc
6) Delta's being brought into the picture....Ooops!..just kidding again.
7) United's back...again...Not

Shall we play this silly "career expectations" game some more? 😉

My belief structures' based on the concept that trade unionism MUST have time worked within it's essential valutations of/for any members, to even exist on any functional level. You disagree, and here we are...