US Pilots Labor Thread 3/11-3/18 OBSERVE THE RULES

[Mr. Big]

Those of of us who understand the meaning of integrity AVOID membership to evade a label that is carried for life.

...I rest my case, your honor.

 

[fodase]

Yep, subject change..and just in time. I show cleardirects comment to HP about west membership, remind him what ACTUALLY happened, and you show up with a new topic.




And for cleardirect:I posted the usapa C&BL’s. In the original C&BL in effect at the time there was no provision for the BPR to vote in members. You failed to answer my question though. By what legal constitutional method where west pilots voted in? C&BL says that is a domicile function.

So any layman can easily see that it is indeed the latter that motivated the west pilots: AVOID membership by hiding behind a technicality....(but be sure to cry about being shut out from membership in the same breath...)

OK, I think we all get it.

And it is precisely this type of thing that will be shown to the jury...I suggest you discontinue this line of dialogue...it's giving away the west's true intent to AVOID membership of the union.

I guess you don't practice what you preach just like every other eastie, my post has nothing to do with your discussion over membership, yet you don't address my post and bury your head in the sand.

 

[pilotn79]

...I rest my case, your honor.

Just what I expected, a surrender.

 

[cleardirect]

Well, you can only be heading in a few directions here, none to your avail. In your exchange with HP, you suggested there was "no way for a west pilot to be a member..." I just showed the whole world it was indeed otherwise. If the West's "true desire" was to become a member, then they wouldn't care how it happened, would they? If the desire was to AVOID membership (as illustrated by almost ALL of their actions) then the Domiclie Rep technicality is the one you'd hide behind. I suggest the latter...stacks of documents suggest just that: that if all 1800 sit on the side, USAPA gets stalemated. In fact, this exchange in itself shows your intent to hide behind a technicality to AVOID membership.Sorry to dissappoint you, but if USAPA is guilty of anything with regards to west membership, it will be argued and shown that they indeed granted the membership you all so "craved" in spite of their CBL's, and then amended them afterward, since a BPR vote was obviously the ONLY WAY to get a west pilot to become a member. Only those west pilots with membership applications were voted on by the BPR.

Try again, and don't dodge the question with arbitration dates, just admit that your post to HP was ...ummm, not the entire story. Actually, don't bother, by the time she/he reads this, it'll be obvious what the truth is.

What you just “showed the worldâ€￾ was that usapa considers the ends to justify the means. No legal way vote in west members. The BPR went off book to invent a way to vote west members in.

As you say usapa is guilty of ignoring their own CBL’s.

Today after the C&BL were amended and implemented in Dec 2008, and we now have a rep. Yes we can become members. There are now something over 100 now. That does not change the facts before December.

As to your theory of motivation. Irrelevant! Usapa wrote the C&BL we just followed them. Unlike usapa as you admitted. When you get a speeding ticket does the judge ask why you were speeding? No just that you violated the law. Same thing here. The arbitrator will not ask why, just how was the west voted in.

Your question is the one that the arbitrator will be answering. How did west pilots find themselves to be members. Because usapa made up the rules ignoring their own C&BL’s.

April 1st, April 28th. Mark your calendar we will know soon.

 

[hp_fa]

Let me explain my last comment in case it was not clear.

My experience was in Arizona and only three cases I was involved in were in federal court. The others were in State court. The Arizona Rules of Civil Procedure are largely based on the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. However, Arizona rules do provide for a change if judge if no contested issue has been heard by that judge.

Rule 42(f), Ariz. R. Civ. P., governs changes of judge in civil cases. Each side is entitled to one change of judge and one change of commissioner as a matter of right, provided the change is timely requested. Ariz. R. Civ. P. 42(f)(1)(A). This right may be waived either by agreement or by failing to exercise it before the challenged judge has heard any contested matter in the case. Smith v. Mitchell, 214 Ariz. 78. 82, ¶ 15, 148 P.3d 1151, 1155 (App. 2006).

The same rule does not apply in federal court. Even if it did Judge Wake has made many rulings in this case that were contested issues. I don't see any viable way to avoid trial on April 28th because any party may be unhappy with his rulings. The proper time for nearly all appeals of a civil matter is after the trial when the rulings of the trial court are final and in writing.

In my opinion USAPA's counsel are treading a dangerous path. They seem to be aggravating the Judge, either intentionally or stupidly. I have commented once or twice before about language contained in his written orders. I also have reviewed the transcript of a telephonic conference with the judge. There is no objective way to describe the judge as anything but unhappy with defense counsel. If you don't believe me get a copy of the transcript and read it.

Anyway, I didn't intend to be argumentative, but rather to explain my earlier post.

 

[dgriffit]

Now lets say you were hired in 1987 and you are furloughed with no recall likely without the merger. you are slotted below the West pilot hired in 2003, who would have been your classmate had you been accepted or tried to interview. The answere is now 4/22nds.

The ironic part is that the pilot with the lowest ratio (4/22nds) actually recieved the biggest gain, i.e. their job back,

You are mixing what is a reasonable calculation argument (although I disagree with it) with speculation. Unless you had the ability to see into the future, you have no way to know the likelihood of recall... period. You are making an assumption that AWA saved US and saved the jobs of the furloughees. It may have, or it may have been vice versa, or who is to say what would have happened had there not been a merger? We have no crystal ball. Just speculation.

One other comment. Has the west not adopted DOH for their scheduling, base bid, vacation, etc? It seems as though most members feel it works pretty well for their day to day work.

 

[cleardirect]

One other comment. Has the west not adopted DOH for their scheduling, base bid, vacation, etc? It seems as though most members feel it works pretty well for their day to day work.

Has US Airways? Ask the Empire/Trump guys that question.

 

[luvn737s]

One other comment. Has the west not adopted DOH for their scheduling, base bid, vacation, etc? It seems as though most members feel it works pretty well for their day to day work.

Don't forget you are talking about an integration of two lists, which is a completely different animal from an unmerged list. But somehow, I think you already knew that.

 

[cleardirect]

One other comment. Has the west not adopted DOH for their scheduling, base bid, vacation, etc? It seems as though most members feel it works pretty well for their day to day work.

Does NWA/DAl now bid those things by DOH? No, they bid those by their new merged and arbitrated seniority list.

 

[ussnark]

Has US Airways? Ask the Empire/Trump guys that question.

I know this has been stated many times before:

My understanding is,

The Trump dudes wanted their old Eastern DOH.

The Empire dudes got Piedmont retirement in lieu of straight DOH (They got DOH to stay on the F-28; bottom of the list - at the time of merger - to move onto another piece of equipment).

You keep asking that question, is it just reflex? Please read the above. Please ask questions about what happened. I think you will find that it is old news and that you need to move forward.

 

[westcoastflyer]

Here's some perspective on why there is such a great disparity in the dates-of-hire between the West and East pilot groups. The original US Air, since combining its operations with Piedmont and PSA, has withdrawn service to more that 120, yes 120 cities. (That's twice as many cities as Southwest currently serves!) It has been the Incredible Shrinking Airline for the past 20 years. No other airline has ever shrunk anywhere close to this much, and still stayed in business. Mr. Nicholau understood this, and that's why it is not fair to expect the West pilot group to have to pay the price (D.O.H) for all of the shrinkage and previous failures of US Airways.

 

[Megasnoop]

Megasnoop, I have to wonder why you CARE so much that the west join. Common sense should tell you that it ain't gonna happen until this nic thing gets figured out.

Metro, I honestly dont CARE whether you join or not. If you want taxation withour participation, thats your call. But if you dont, stop using all the lame excuses (like the Menendez brothers) for why you didnt.

Certainly the argument that the west somehow is getting a free ride" is laughable.

Of course its laughable, because your not getting a free ride. sooner or later youll have to pay.

Honestly the least of your worries now should be how many west pilots have joined your fake union. You keep holding on to this idea that non participation is somehow relevant to the addington proceedings. It's not...at all..in any shape or form, relevant to the DFR.

"FAKE" union? Since usapa is the government certified and duly elected union, that sounds like the type of insult that this board tries to discourage. Your non-participation and other tactics will play a key role when all is sorted out.

As much as usapa would love to use west dollars to help fund their misguided legal campaign to dismantle our careers, again, it ain't gonna happen. Maybe you could hold some kind of bake sale, or a car wash to help refill what must be drastically depleted coffers.

Your getting into the "your mother wears combat boots" mode, Metro with your "misguided, bake sale, car wash" comments. Not sure why so many of your posts have that kind of rhetoric. Maybe you just dont have any sound arguments. But to set the record straight, you are the ones who started the DFR. Its your legal campaign, not ours. Our (your) funds are paying for it. And when its all over, this exercise isnt going to put much a dent in our budget.

Anyway, usapas financial problems are not our concern.

Since were adaquately funded, its not not our concern either.

Again, you have the vast majority vote, why do you want the west screwing with the union from the inside so badly? Let it go.

West participation isnt "screwing with the union." Its participating. And were not afraid of it. We invite it. We been actively soliciting west involvement since certification.

USAPA is going to have to fight tooth and nqil for every west cent they get. Is that a wise use of energy? I don't think so.

So far it hasnt cost us too much. A letter the company. LCC takes over from there. Easy, painless and amazingly successful. Compliance over 99%.
Snooper

 

[Schultz]

Here is what everyone needs to understand. The questions before the court/jury are as follows. Was there an agreement to arbitrate? Did this arbitration take place? Was there an outcome? Did one side breach it's duty to honor the agreement? What was the purpose of usapa? Have they honored the agreement or not!!! Have they thru their actions harmed the plaintiffs in this case?

Don't forget, Did the east side have active pilots who were listed as furloughed? Did ALPA provide an inaccurate list to Mr. Nick? All very important.

 

[Mr. Big]

What you just “showed the worldâ€￾ was that usapa considers the ends to justify the means. No legal way vote in west members. The BPR went off book to invent a way to vote west members in.

As you say usapa is guilty of ignoring their own CBL’s.

Today after the C&BL were amended and implemented in Dec 2008, and we now have a rep. Yes we can become members. There are now something over 100 now. That does not change the facts before December.

As to your theory of motivation. Irrelevant! Usapa wrote the C&BL we just followed them. Unlike usapa as you admitted. When you get a speeding ticket does the judge ask why you were speeding? No just that you violated the law. Same thing here. The arbitrator will not ask why, just how was the west voted in.

Your question is the one that the arbitrator will be answering. How did west pilots find themselves to be members. Because usapa made up the rules ignoring their own C&BL’s.

April 1st, April 28th. Mark your calendar we will know soon.

Well, your circuitous arguing is really getting you somewhere now, isn't it?

1) What was the purpose of west pilot's sending in membership applications?
- to become members....right? what other reason would one do this.

2) (Your sidestep of the real issue is noted), you braggingly suggest that even though west pilots
submitted applications, they shouldn't have been made members. Well, that wouldn't be fair
fair to them, would it? You stacked the deck, USAPA trumped you, and you're mad...
3) We all know just how upset you are that USAPA finally pinned you down from 2 years of
evasive tactics to kill off USAPA and never join...time to live with it. If you NEVER join, few
care, your choice. But for those that mailed in applications, USAPA checkmated the game
you were playing.

4) All this charade has really shown is just how slippery and pre-meditated the west pilots
have been over their "persecution" by USAPA and the East.

None of it has a peep to do with what you deem to be your hail-mary DFR case. But it is revealing of west behavior and intent.

For that, thanks.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Has US Airways? Ask the Empire/Trump guys that question.

Maybe you should.

Empire got DOH for furlough, non rev and kept DOH in the equipment and domiciles (and by extension vacation) they brought to the merger.

Shuttle got the virtually the same via an iron clad fence around the domiciles and equipment they brought to the merger.

Both got big raises and a defined pension as well.