Welcome to the Jungle

[KCFlyer]

So what is the moral rate of pay for CEO's and who is it who sets that standard? What if the moral rate of pay is lower than any CEO qualified people are willing to work for.

What's moral? Oh, I dunno. Maybe forgoing a pay raise when asking your employees for cuts.

Several years ago I worked for Sprint. At the time the CEO made a salary of one million dollar a year (just salary). So that tells you just how long ago it was. At any rate...the word from the corner office was that because times were tough...the MAXIMUM raise amount was limited to 3%. So the lowlife worker who worked weekends and holidays could expect no more than a 3% increase in pay. So the average white collar guy making $50,000 a year could expect a MAXIMUM raise of $1,500. And then the company anounced HIS raise. Well, gosh...because of hard times raises were limited to 3%, so we expected it to be an increase of $30,000. It wasn't His increase was $1,000,000...that's right, a 100% increase. THAT my friend, is immoral.

 

[SparrowHawk]

What's moral? Oh, I dunno. Maybe forgoing a pay raise when asking your employees for cuts.

His increase was $1,000,000...that's right, a 100% increase. THAT my friend, is immoral.

NO!!! It's not immoral, it's Capitalism. It the CEO's pay raise is immoral then where is the morallity in the confiscation of your wages by the IRS? (One of the most corrupt & immoral agencies in recorded history)

 

[Ms Tree]

Not sure if it's immoral or unethical but it certainly is not based on reality. BOD's are the ones who determine Sr Executive salaries in most cases. BOD's typically consist of other CEO's. Their salaries have sky rocketed way beyond what it reasonable or justified by their performance. We their salaries tied to performance that would be one thing. If their employees were treated in the same way that would be better. I think it is obscene that a CEO get a raise while a company is loosing money and asking it's employees to take a pay cut. I think to argue that there are no other people willing to run a company for a few measly hundred thousand a year is foolish. I do not see how some companies could do much worse. Perhaps getting some young blood in the ivory towers might do some companies a bit of good.

Government costs money. Money has to be collected. If not the IRS then who? If not from wages then where do you want to get the money from.....magic? Everything I buy is paid for using my wages. Sales tax is paid for with my wages. My property tax is paid for with my wages. It all comes from my wages.

Capitalism is not a perfect system. No system is. The CEO salaries is a perfect example of the flaws in 'capitalism'. I find it interesting that 'capitalist' will pay as much as they can for a CEO but will try and pay as little as they can for the labor to run the company.

 

[KCFlyer]

NO!!! It's not immoral, it's Capitalism. It the CEO's pay raise is immoral then where is the morallity in the confiscation of your wages by the IRS? (One of the most corrupt & immoral agencies in recorded history)

Sparrow...CEO earning $1,000,000 tells underlings making 50k that due to tough times, raises are limited to 3%, Then his pay is raised 100%. That's not capitalism, it's greed. It's reverse socialism....that the money that wasn't given to the line worker and give it to the CEO. It's immoral. BTW....that particular "capitalistic" CEO was marching Sprint into a merger with Worldcom. That evil government said no...and in the process saved Sprint from oblivion. But in the process of those negotiations, this capitalistic king that you admire had verbiage put in that if the merger was approved by shareholders (not the government), the top execs would be fully vested in their stock options. Shareholders approved and this symbol of capitalism at it's finest cashed out. THen left the company. Sprint has been floundering ever since. I thought capitalism was supposed to lift ALL boats. It just lifted a select few in this case. And I think I'll need to grab a barf bag if you even try to justify it.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Government costs money. Money has to be collected. If not the IRS then who? If not from wages then where do you want to get the money from.....magic? Everything I buy is paid for using my wages. Sales tax is paid for with my wages. My property tax is paid for with my wages. It all comes from my wages.

Not nearly as much as we spend now and can't afford.

Wage/Income taxes are confiscatory because you have no option.

Sales, VAT's abd consumption taxes mean you essentially pay for what you use. Want to lower your taxes? Buy less. Pay more? Buy more,. Don't want to pay Real Estate Tax? Don't rent. Pretty simple concept.

Kinda like,"Don't believe in abortion? Don't have one"

Unlike an Income tax a consuption based tax code puts the amount of taxes paid in the hands of the people and doesn't rely on the use of force nearly as much as the current system does.

 

[Ms Tree]

If I want to eat, drive, go out or anything else I have to pay taxes. I have yet to be given the option is I want to pay sales tax.

It has been proven time and time again that a consumption tax has a disproportionate affect on folks who make less. It does not work. That's why no countries use it as their sole source of income.

 

[Dog Wonder]

Kinda like,"Don't believe in abortion? Don't have one"

Or don't believe in abortion, don't have sex.

 

[SparrowHawk]

If I want to eat, drive, go out or anything else I have to pay taxes. I have yet to be given the option is I want to pay sales tax.

It has been proven time and time again that a consumption tax has a disproportionate affect on folks who make less. It does not work. That's why no countries use it as their sole source of income.

OHH, Refresh my memory as to which EU countries have personal income taxes? MOST of them IIRC use the VAT as their primary source of revenue. I've never paid an unbundled tax (additional tax added to the price) in the EU. One of the things being discussed it a consumption tax will an examption for Groceries.

Why must we feed a government that responds only to the Banksters and not those who fund the day to day operations?

 

[eolesen]

OHH, Refresh my memory as to which EU countries have personal income taxes? MOST of them IIRC use the VAT as their primary source of revenue.

Actually, most of the EU states have an income tax. Monaco doesn't, but France, Germany, Spain, and the UK all do.

VAT only accounts for about 30-35% of the revenue for both France and Germany. Income taxes are around 40%, with corporate, fuel and various wealth taxes making up the rest.

I'd also caution on using the EU model as the ideal.

 

[Ms Tree]

OHH, Refresh my memory as to which EU countries have personal income taxes? MOST of them IIRC use the VAT as their primary source of revenue. I've never paid an unbundled tax (additional tax added to the price) in the EU. One of the things being discussed it a consumption tax will an examption for Groceries.

Why must we feed a government that responds only to the Banksters and not those who fund the day to day operations?

Seems you realled wrong. I just got up to G and got board but I am sure you can find the answer if you ereally want to.

Austria – 21%-50% income tax .......................20% VAT
Belgium – 21%-50%............................ 18%
Czech Republic – 15% .........................15%-20%
Finland – 6.5% - 30% national .................9%-23%
16%-21% municipal


France – 0%-75%.......................... 2.1% - 19.6%
Germany – 0-45%..................... 7-19%
Greece – 0-45%............................. 11-23%

 

[SparrowHawk]

Seems you realled wrong. I just got up to G and got board but I am sure you can find the answer if you ereally want to.

Austria – 21%-50% income tax .......................20% VAT
Belgium – 21%-50%............................ 18%
Czech Republic – 15% .........................15%-20%
Finland – 6.5% - 30% national .................9%-23%
16%-21% municipal


France – 0%-75%.......................... 2.1% - 19.6%
Germany – 0-45%..................... 7-19%
Greece – 0-45%............................. 11-23%

It looks on the surface that the income tax rates in the EU are actually lower then here. Interesting to say the least. We can do better.

 

[southwind]

THIS !

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

 

[Ms Tree]

It looks on the surface that the income tax rates in the EU are actually lower then here. Interesting to say the least. We can do better.

Where do you get lower. The highest tax rate in the US is 33%. Fifteen percent for capital gains. No VAT and sales tax is about 8%. Seems lower me on average in the US than abroad.

 

[eolesen]

It looks on the surface that the income tax rates in the EU are actually lower then here. Interesting to say the least. We can do better.

Maybe we should lower our tax rates to theirs. They obviously get more benefits for their lower taxes.

Sales tax at 8%? Maybe in Texas, but I keep seeing 9.5-11% when I look at my receipts...

 

[Ms Tree]

9-11% seriously? Where do you live?